OzSTOC
Honda ST1300 Section => Ask A Tech about your Honda ST1300 => Topic started by: Shiney on May 20, 2018, 05:06:35 PM
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So I've been having a few problems with my St 1300 in particular I've been experiencing a lot of backfiring whenever changing gears and just in general use.
When I pull the clutch in to change gears it will backfire and also just when riding it will backfire from time to time, but mainly on deceleration when the clutch is pulled in.
There is also a very rich smell of fuel from the exhaust and my fuel usage has skyrocketed.
I have checked the five way vacuum hose connection and it is clear and I've replaced the spark plugs and done an ECU reset.
During my latest attempt to diagnose the issue when I block the air hose that runs from the rear of the air box down I get a smoother idle and no backfiring.
This is as far as I have gotten and I'm hoping that someone can make a suggestion as to what I can do to fix this.
Cheers
Shiney
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..... I'm hoping that someone can make a suggestion as to what I can do to fix this.
Checked your fuel filter / fuel pump?
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It doesn't seem to have any issue with fuel coming through as it smells very rich.
However if I blocked the hole at the back of the air box the issue seems to go away.
I've attached a photo pointing out the hole I'm referring to.(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180520/a2e3d48566da19b773bc4377605d88c5.jpg)
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:popcorn
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And here is a picture of the hose that leads to the hole at the back of the air box(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180520/23b595ed06244cc06a3a6bfe0b1fb417.jpg)
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It doesn't seem to have any issue with fuel coming through as it smells very rich....
My understanding is that fuel blockages at the filter or fuel pump, is that fuel is intermittently blocked, when enough pressure is applied, fuel surges, excess is unburnt and goes out the exhaust, results in excessive fuel consumption and odour of fuel - and if someone is riding behind you they will smell, it very strongly, and may be even see it - black cloudy fumes.
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if that is the crankcase vent do not block it. From your description of the problem ,it suggests to me that the PCV , (positive crankcase valve) is faulty,
Otherwise backfiring and a strong smell of unburnt fuel, is a symptom of a lazy ,sticky, fuel injector letting too much fuel into the combustion cycle, and possibly causing a miss firing of the associated cylinder ,then hence the backfiring when decelerating etc.
Cheers, Winston66, Northampton, WA.
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It doesn't seem to have any issue with fuel coming through as it smells very rich....
My understanding is that fuel blockages at the filter or fuel pump, is that fuel is intermittently blocked, when enough pressure is applied, fuel surges, excess is unburnt and goes out the exhaust, results in excessive fuel consumption and odour of fuel - and if someone is riding behind you they will smell, it very strongly, and may be even see it - black cloudy fumes.
Thanks mate :-++
How do I check if the fuel filter and fuel pump is working?
Allso a little more info... nothing can be seen coming from the exhaust (no black cloudy fumes) however there is a strong smell of fuel.
Also when the hole/hose in the pictures is blocked with my finger the smell and backfiring goes away :think1 :think1 :think1
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if that is the crankcase vent do not block it. From your description of the problem ,it suggests to me that the PCV , (positive crankcase valve) is faulty,
Otherwise backfiring and a strong smell of unburnt fuel, is a symptom of a lazy ,sticky, fuel injector letting too much fuel into the combustion cycle, and possibly causing a miss firing of the associated cylinder ,then hence the backfiring when decelerating etc.
Cheers, Winston66, Northampton, WA.
Thanks mate :-++
Is there any way to check the positive crankcase valve or the fuel injector to see if it is lazy or sticky?
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A mates sports bike started backfiring and cutting out intermittently chased it for weeks . One morning battery was flat put new battery in problem was solved
just a thought
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A mates sports bike started backfiring and cutting out intermittently chased it for weeks . One morning battery was flat put new battery in problem was solved
just a thought
Thanks mate :-++
I disconnected the battery and left it unplugged overnight when I did the ECU reset :think1 but I'll try connecting it up to another battery and see if it makes a diffrence :thumbsup
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Quote from: PC on May 20, 2018, 08:02:49 PM (http://ozstoc.com/index.php?topic=12754.msg1237713#msg1237713)<blockquote>A mates sports bike started backfiring and cutting out intermittently chased it for weeks . One morning battery was flat put new battery in problem was solved
just a thought
With those symptoms a battery should not be the problem but as we all know strange things happen especially where electrikery is involved
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Thanks mate :-++
How do I check if the fuel filter and fuel pump is working?
Back in the 80's I had a problem of engine stuttering, surging excessive fuel consumption in a Nissan Bluebird on a road trip from Melbourne to the Gold Coast. Re-fuelled for the second time in 580km at West Wyalong, normally that distance on one tank - excessive fuel consumption.
Car would start after re-fuelling, called NRMA (4:00am, -4C, two kids asleep for a while in the back seat, Helen not very happy), NRMA man arrives quickly, you have a blocked fuel filter man, new fuel filter fitted (no charge), car starts, back to 500km plus between re-fuelling - blocked fuel filter.
Skip to 2014, trip around Tassie with Phil on his GSX1400, bike spluttering, surging, excessive fuel consumption, me following (at times) could smell fuel, see little puffs of black, gassy fumes (the smell and the fumes were making me sick), in the end bike would not proceed. We would need to wait on side of road for 10 to 15 minutes every 30 minutes or so. After cooling the bike would start and run (sort of) okay, until it would conk-out again.
We finally made it to Lake Leake where were to camp for a few nights. Phil strips removes tank and strips fuel pump, in-built filter full of gunk, cleans it all up, bike runs okay for remainder of trip - blocked fuel pump filter.
How these are checked on an ST1300 - I don't know, I'm like the deer with no eyes.
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With those symptoms a battery should not be the problem but as we all know strange things happen especially where electrikery is involved
[/quote]
Yes Garry I hear you I bought a new v6 Mazda Tribute from day one I complained about fuel economy,power , auto lag on kick down , motor reving slow to return to idle when stopped at traffic lights
and short battery life
Their response. put car on computer nothing wrong At 120k needed to replace alternator and BAM
all these problems vanished the car went like the clappers and was a pleasure to drive .
But Hey try to convince so called Mazda engineer
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Thanks guys, I will be trying to check all the things that have been suggested tomorrow :thumbs
I really appreciate all the suggestions and if you have any other ideas please let me know :-++
Cheers
Shiney
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Try the easiest 'fix' first and work your way towards the more complicated one. :grin Good luck Shiney. :thumb
How many k's on the clock ?
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Also check the mass airflow sensor (Map) is clean and has proper connection as faulty MAP sensor could cause similar problems.
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So far have checked the battery and map sensor but the issue remains.
I have checked the fuel lines and they all appear to be fine.
The hose that I was blocking with my finger is the pair solenoid valve hose.
When this is blocked all issues go away but I have no idea why ?
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Shiney - Would it be a dirty or faulty injector? - The excess unburnt fuel is being passed thru causing the exhaust smell.
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I don't know how to check the injector :fp
However I've narrowed it down to occurring on the left side of the bike only.
If I disconnect the spark plugs on the left the bike runs with a lack of power but no backfiring.
With the spark plugs connected it backfires from the left side exhaust only but has a lot more power.
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When the engine is cold start up the motor and when running at idle speed then check the individual exhaust pipes for heat, use your finger , but be careful to not get burnt. One pipe that is colder to the others will indicate that its associated cylinder has a problem,It is my guess that the problem will then be either fuel, or spark related ,Over to you how you then solve that problem .
Cheers, Winston66, Northampton WA.
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I don't know how to check the injector :fp
However I've narrowed it down to occurring on the left side of the bike only.
If I disconnect the spark plugs on the left the bike runs with a lack of power but no backfiring.
With the spark plugs connected it backfires from the left side exhaust only but has a lot more power.
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Shiney swap the spark plugs over to the other side cylinders and see if it transfers the problem to the other side, thereby pointing to a spark plug
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Same heat from both pipes
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Sparkplugs swapped from one side to the other with no changes resulting.
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Please make sure that you check the heat of the pipes as close to the individual cylinders as possible,and only do it when starting the motor when dead cold.
When disconnecting or swapping spark plugs around only do them one at a time,this will help you to isolate a problem to a specific cylinder if it is ignition related,
Cheers, Winston66, Northampton WA.
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Could it be the spark plug lead is cracked causing it to short out...once had that problem on the FJR???
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Thanks again guys
I'm putting the bike back together for now and am going to call it a day as I have to start getting everything ready for work tomorrow ( I start very early in the morning and need to catch up on sleep) and make/eat dinner of course.
I'll keep going on all the suggestions when I have a chance.
Thank you again everyone I really appreciate all the effort, thought and suggestions.
If you think of any other suggestions please post them and I will give that a shot as well :thumbs
Cheers
Shiney
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When the engine is cold start up the motor and when running at idle speed then check the individual exhaust pipes for heat, use your finger , but be careful to not get burnt. One pipe that is colder to the others will indicate that its associated cylinder has a problem,It is my guess that the problem will then be either fuel, or spark related ,Over to you how you then solve that problem .
Cheers, Winston66, Northampton WA.
Shiney,
I have an infrared thermometer you can borrow.
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Thanks mate :hatwave
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I can't see valves mentioned above, but could it be a sticking or badly seating valve?
That would show up on a compression test, I suppose.
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Ok, here is the latest update.
I felt the heat of the pipes where it comes out of the motor and have felt no change between any of them.
I have switched the spark plugs and coil from left to right with no change (still backfiring out of the left exhaust only)
This leaves a badly seeded or sticky valve as being the final suggestion however I have no idea how to check this.
Does anyone know how I could go about checking this?
The only other thing that has been changed recently on the bike is the addition of the electronic cruise control.
To make sure that this wasn't the cause of the backfiring I disconnected power to the cruise control to see if it was some sort of power issue however there was no change after doing this.
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If you get no response Shiney it might be time to get it to a mechanic to delve in a bit further :thumb
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If you get no response Shiney it might be time to get it to a mechanic to delve in a bit further :thumb
That's is the plan, if I can't get it running properly over the weekend (all the mechanics are shut on the weekend :fp)
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Big place like Brisbane doesn't have a mobile bike mechanic?
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The next thing that I would try is to obtain a compression tester and then check each cylinder in turn and note any differences in pressures.
This will show if there is any differences in cylinder pressures due to a degraded valve,
Otherwise if no out of spec difference in pressures then I will still suspect a problem with a fuel injector supplying excess fuel to one cylinder.
Cheers,
Winston66, Northampton WA.
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The next thing that I would try is to obtain a compression tester and then check each cylinder in turn and note any differences in pressures.
This will show if there is any differences in cylinder pressures due to a degraded valve,
Otherwise if no out of spec difference in pressures then I will still suspect a problem with a fuel injector supplying excess fuel to one cylinder.
Cheers,
Winston66, Northampton WA.
Thanks mate,
I will go out and buy a compression tester tomorrow :thumbsup
Cheers
Shiney
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Well guys I believe it must be the valve.
The left side is a lot lower than the right (https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180527/e26a666390a370f33d0117d0ba37dcba.jpg)(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180527/8879f85638fbeb9bf4e1ecee89f02c89.jpg)(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180527/4ca850d8eb53993ea098dd89d7b559af.jpg)(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180527/cac4bffac474010886d59489f8d2e458.jpg)
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Time to do a valve clearance check Brother Shiney🤓
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For those that 'have a clue', is it unusual that both LH side cylinders are low on compression? Why would that be?
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Its most unusual to have any problem with any cylinders, 11 or 1300.
The left valve shims may be a little to thick, or they may not have been seated correctly. It is a situation that I cant recall before.
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Well guys I believe it must be the valve.
I humbly refer you to Reply #29 on: May 22, 2018, 01:04:41 AM :grin
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Well guys I believe it must be the valve.
I humbly refer you to Reply #29 on: May 22, 2018, 01:04:41 AM :grin
Reply #29
I can't see valves mentioned above, but could it be a sticking or badly seating valve?
That would show up on a compression test, I suppose.
That is the post that led me to doing the compression test :thumbsup
Thanks mate :-++
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:think1 So if you add some Selleys no more leaks to the fuel it should stop the valve sticking or leaking :whistle :whistle :grin :grin
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:think1 So if you add some Selleys no more leaks to the fuel it should stop the valve sticking or leaking :whistle :whistle :grin :grin
I think you ment...
:think1 So if you add some Selleys no more leaks to the fuel it should stop the valve sticking or leaking :whistle :whistle :grin :grin bike :eek :eek
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I think you ment...
:think1 So if you add some Selleys no more leaks to the fuel it should stop the valve sticking or leaking :whistle :whistle :grin :grin bike :eek :eek
anyhow, the valves won't stick... :whistle
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Incorrect valve clearance seems like a most unexpected problem. My 13 has 176k on the dial, has had the clearances checked on schedule every time, and they have never needed adjusting.
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:think1 So if you add some Selleys no more leaks to the fuel it should stop the valve sticking or leaking :whistle :whistle :grin :grin
I think you ment...
:think1 So if you add some Selleys no more leaks to the fuel it should stop the valve sticking or leaking :whistle :whistle :grin :grin bike :eek :eek
See - problem Solved ;-* :grin
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Incorrect valve clearance seems like a most unexpected problem. My 13 has 176k on the dial, has had the clearances checked on schedule every time, and they have never needed adjusting.
I agree Pete - Shineys bike is fairly new so I am still thinking injector problem :wink1
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When you say backfiring do you mean popping back through the air cleaner or popping crackling out the exhaust?
The pipe at the back of the air box that you blocked is the air injection, witchI believe feeds fresh air into the exhaust ports thru a pair of reed valves in the head and is controlled by the large valve just behind the airbox.
The crankcase breather goes to the front right corner of the airbox.
If too much air is being bled into the exhaust it will mess with the O2 sensors cursing a over rich situation.
Also check for leaks in the exhaust system.
:blu13
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Makes sense to me
Since fitting Staintune mufflers I get a little crackle from exhaust but a lot of bikes and cars with aftermarket exhausts does it
But not actual backfire
But I don't get a fuel smell
Sometimes sounds good ++
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When you say backfiring do you mean popping back through the air cleaner or popping crackling out the exhaust?
The pipe at the back of the air box that you blocked is the air injection, witchI believe feeds fresh air into the exhaust ports thru a pair of reed valves in the head and is controlled by the large valve just behind the airbox.
The crankcase breather goes to the front right corner of the airbox.
If too much air is being bled into the exhaust it will mess with the O2 sensors cursing a over rich situation.
Also check for leaks in the exhaust system.
:blu13
Hi mate,
The popping and crackling is coming out of the exhaust not through the air cleaner and is joined by the smell of fuel.
I am working on the valve clearances at the moment but when I am done (if the issue remains) I will start looking at the air injection, reed valves and inspect the entire exhaust system again.
Makes sense to me
Since fitting Staintune mufflers I get a little crackle from exhaust but a lot of bikes and cars with aftermarket exhausts does it
But not actual backfire
But I don't get a fuel smell
Sometimes sounds good ++
I put the aftermarket exhaust cans on the bike shortly after getting it and have always had a bit of a burble but this is nothing like that, it will backfire (pop) even when changing gears while riding |-i
But when it is working properly it really sounds good :rockon
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I have just realised that I completely forgot to update this topic with the outcome, so here it is...
After trying everything that was suggested and still having no luck I took the bike in to the Honda dealer that deals with Police ST1300s (Brisbane Motorcycles at Windsor).
They were able to fix the issue of excessive fuel usage, the smell of fuel from the exhaust and the backfiring by balancing the throttle bodies and blocking off the PAIR system.
Once this was done the bike ran perfectly :runyay
Hopefully this will help anyone that has similar issues in the future.
Cheers
Shiney
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hi shiney
That pipe at the rear of the airbox goes to the pair valve which ultimately is connected to two reed valves on the top of each rocker cover.
The reeds recirculate engine fumes and can get gummed up. Easy job to do and since you noticed some effect when you bkocked the pipe might be worth a try. I am chasing a fuelling problem myself and it is on my to do list tomorrow.
The tip apparently is not to pull the actual reed assemblies apart. Just clean them with carby cleaner.
Cheers
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hi shiney
That pipe at the rear of the airbox goes to the pair valve which ultimately is connected to two reed valves on the top of each rocker cover.
The reeds recirculate engine fumes and can get gummed up. Easy job to do and since you noticed some effect when you bkocked the pipe might be worth a try. I am chasing a fuelling problem myself and it is on my to do list tomorrow.
The tip apparently is not to pull the actual reed assemblies apart. Just clean them with carby cleaner.
Cheers
G'day HunterTodd,
Before I took the bike to the Honda shop I did do the cleaning of the reeds but it made no difference :'(
The Honda mechanics blocking off the PAIR system did fix the issue though :thumbsup
However it is a good thing for anyone having similar issues in the future to check :thumbs
Cheers
Shiney
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Hi Shiney
Attached is a photo of a fitting I made to measure fuel pressure on the ST.
I turned it out of an M20 bolt from Bunnings and it replaces the M12 cap on the end of the left hand fuel rail. (the one which hold the fuel supply line)
I coupled my fleabay fuel pressure gauge to it and it worked a treat with the pressure proving to be right on spec.
If my examination of the o2 sensors proves fruitless my next step with be to purchase a needle valve of ebay and meter the fuel under pressure to a measuring cylinder to determine if the flow is sufficient.
My bike is leaning out and fuel supply is one of the usual culprits. I have examined the entire fuel delivery system from the steel wool inlet strainer to the fuel injectors and my gut feeling is that the issue is not fuel supply but I really am at a loss now.
Will post the results of the O2 sensor investigation. Fingers crossed.
Cheers
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Good luck mate, hopefully the O2 sensor investigation reveals the issue, I look forward to the results :popcorn