OzSTOC
Honda ST1100 Section => Honda ST1100 General Questions => Topic started by: kappy5003 on August 11, 2014, 03:31:24 PM
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Hi Guys
Some time ago I did all the shims both sides and its been put back for some time.
So the other day I reconnected radiator, with nice new red coolant.
Then yesterday after sorting out some battery issues finally fire up AnaSTasia. It took a while for her to start but when I did I could tell all was not smooth and there was heaps off black smooth as I revved her, probably flooded her. I also noticed more tappety than before I did the shims. :H
When Idling and when revved slightly I could tell it was not quite smooth, like timing not right, so too hard leave for another day.
So the morning when and fired up 1 st time tappet noise almiost gone but still not smooth.
Anyone have any experience with this, could i be a tooth out on the cams and still fire.
May have to pull it all apart again.
Cheers
Kappy
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Check for vacuum leaks. I had a problem with my 1100 running rough at idle and found that one of the caps on the vacuum lines used for carby balancing was cracked and sucking air. You might also need to do a carby balance, if the carbs are out of balance the idle won't be as smooth as it should be.
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Good advice from Bikebear. The vacuum caps are easy to miss, and the vacuum hose can come off the nipple where it attaches to the intake. A carby balance is supposed to be done after checking the valves, as any shim changes may affect the balance.
But it is also easy to get the cams a tooth out, but if all the marks line up it should be ok. The bike will still run as long as it is not way out, in which case valves will bend. Easy enough to take the cam covers off and check for peace of mind.
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Tks guys I will have to recheck that everything is lined up right.
Its not just idle as the revs are increased still not quite right, sorta feels as if timing is not quite right.
Could it be out say one tooth, and still run without causing damage?
probably will check vacuum lines as well.
Cheers
Kappy
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Could it be out say one tooth, and still run without causing damage?
As saaz says:
"But it is also easy to get the cams a tooth out, but if all the marks line up it should be ok. The bike will still run as long as it is not way out, in which case valves will bend."
The valve timing will be wrong, hence loss of power and rough running with one tooth error. Any more will lead to a valve being down when a piston comes up and then a bent valve stem and who-knows-what-else will occur.
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I guess if its too far out causing bent valve one would know about it pretty quickly.
A bent valve would be pretty noisy even if it still ran.
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If it's only one tooth out and hence the valve timing is wrong, you'll still end up with burnt valve seats and/or loss of power.
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When I replaced my timing belt and got to the point of starting I had a few minor issues as well.
http://ozstoc.com/index.php?topic=2977.msg38388#msg38388 (http://ozstoc.com/index.php?topic=2977.msg38388#msg38388)
I think that covers it.
Saaz will confirm this (I hope) that the 1100 is prone to some knocking noise coming from appears to be the clutch area. When I first head the sound I thought it may have been a tappet or a big end going but the noise went away once under way. The oil pump is chain driven from the clutch drive shaft so it was possibly the source of the noise.
Surprisingly once I balanced the carbs as best as I could that sound went away. A not so tight clamp on one of the carbs caused a little air in one cylinder causing an erratic misfire and I also thought one tooth was out (LH bank) but it all came down to carb balance in the end.
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Carby balance :thumb
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Yes, the 1100 can be prone to a knocking noise from around the clutch, as well as from one or more of the drive gears that are on the end of each camshaft - on mine the left hand gear is slightly loose (it is held in position by a key but cannot be tightened any more). Only a bit more noise at idle, does not seem to affect performance or life (my 96 has 215,000kms on it, still goes well). A carb balance may smooth things, but sometimes noises are still there at idle.
When I replaced my timing belt and got to the point of starting I had a few minor issues as well.
[url]http://ozstoc.com/index.php?topic=2977.msg38388#msg38388[/url] ([url]http://ozstoc.com/index.php?topic=2977.msg38388#msg38388[/url])
I think that covers it.
Saaz will confirm this (I hope) that the 1100 is prone to some knocking noise coming from appears to be the clutch area. When I first head the sound I thought it may have been a tappet or a big end going but the noise went away once under way. The oil pump is chain driven from the clutch drive shaft so it was possibly the source of the noise.
Surprisingly once I balanced the carbs as best as I could that sound went away. A not so tight clamp on one of the carbs caused a little air in one cylinder causing an erratic misfire and I also thought one tooth was out (LH bank) but it all came down to carb balance in the end.
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If you get to York I can balance your carbies, I believe Wombat found his timing was 1 tooth out when he changed his timing belt, had no idea prior other than poor fuel economy.
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Thanks Yorkie,
Hopefully I get a chance to double check everything on the weekend.
Pretty sure it must be timing, as the bike vibrates as it idles, I wouldn't think carbies out would cause that, maybe I'm wrong.
Beside it was sorta OK beforehand.
Will see when I check it all.
Once I get it back together I take you up on balance and pick up bits as well.
Cheers
Kappy
Cheers
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Hi Guys
Did some exploration today.
Double checked clearances and and timing marks all good.
So if T1 and T4 marks line up with appropriate marks then timing must be OK ,cant imagine being a tooth out if marks all line up.
http://www.my427sc.com/_MISC/_ST/ST1100%20Valve%20Clearance%20Worksheet.pdf (http://www.my427sc.com/_MISC/_ST/ST1100%20Valve%20Clearance%20Worksheet.pdf)
I did notice both front plugs were a bit dirty more carbon than the back two, but all a little black. I'm running iridium plugs.
Can carby imbalance impact to a large degree.
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Hi just an update how things stand atm.
Thought Id do a recap.
About 14 months ago while working in the city I took her off the road as she wasn't quite running as smooth as she used to.
I decided to do forks ,shims, radiator hoses, some leaks plus tyres and do all fluids.
Anyway around November last I experienced a tragic family event that gutted me, so everything went on hold, then a few months ago I put her on a trailer and brought her home as therapy.
Its been a long slow road.
After sorting out some battery issues I finally fired up AnaSTasia. It took a while for her to start but when I did I could tell all was not smooth and there was heaps off black smooth as I revved her, probably flooded her. I also noticed more tappety than before I did the shims.
When Idling and when revved slightly I could tell it was not quite smooth, like timing not right, so too hard leave for another day.
So the next day when and fired up 1 st time tappet noise almost gone but still not smooth.
I checked the spark plugs ( Iridium that I have had for about 20,000kms) they were all quite black
Since then I have started her a few times seems as if getting a little better. New fuel--carby cleaner.
Any way a couple of days ago I got to operating temp and noticed running better when warm, so did carby sync some minor adjustment not really a lot, less than I would have thought.
The following day I fired her up again, Wont fire without choke when cold and it not that cold really, anyway got temp up not as warm as the day before and checked carbs and discovered quite a bit of discrepancy. Thinks out loud, I look at that later.
A few days ago I started her with a little choke and notice a little backfire though carbs, even with choke off still a little backfire. Increase revs a little and can here a little popping, all with air cleaner cover off.
I also smell what I call a pepper type smell from around the intake area, I related this smell to a sort of coolant smell , takes me back to an old car I had with coolant leak car heater system.
Yesterday I decided to obtain some standard plugs and on removing Iridium plugs noticed they are still black and quite damp.
After installing new plugs when starting I observed popping through intake but also noticed when revving slightly popping from all intakes plus felt as though more sluggish than before but slightly smother ,does that make any sense???
So before I start ripping everything apart unnecessarily can I ask a few opinions factual would be a nice, I feel may be necessary to pull carbies out etc.
I know plugs should probably be greyish and not damp.
Cheers
Kappy
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Kappy,
Sounds like she is running rich, so:-
I would check that the choke in the "off" position on the handle bars, is actually "off" on the carbie's.
Carbie balance sounds the go. But, check the choke first.
After I carbie balance my 1100, I found I did not need the choke.
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Tks,
Ive found i now cant start when cold without full choke, like a year of so ago I could start cold without choke and a slight twist of throttle.
What else could make her run rich which is whats happening?
Cheers
Kappy
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Hi Guys
Some time ago I did all the shims both sides and its been put back for some time.
So the other day I reconnected radiator, with nice new red coolant.
Then yesterday after sorting out some battery issues finally fire up AnaSTasia. It took a while for her to start but when I did I could tell all was not smooth and there was heaps off black smooth as I revved her, probably flooded her. I also noticed more tappety than before I did the shims. :H
When Idling and when revved slightly I could tell it was not quite smooth, like timing not right, so too hard leave for another day.
So the morning when and fired up 1 st time tappet noise almiost gone but still not smooth.
Anyone have any experience with this, could i be a tooth out on the cams and still fire.
May have to pull it all apart again.
Cheers
Kappy
When you see clouds of black smoke, it's a tell-tale sign that one of your cylinders isn't firing... From cold, start the bike only for 10 or 20 seconds, then feel the pipes... You will notice that one (or two) pipes are cold.... This will give you an idea which cylinder to look at first... Are you very confident your valve clearances are right ?
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Tks,
Ive found i now cant start when cold without full choke, like a year of so ago I could start cold without choke and a slight twist of throttle.
What else could make her run rich which is whats happening?
Cheers
Kappy
If your bike was running well prior to valve clearances being done, and you haven't touch the balancing at all, then it will have nothing to to with carbs... but make sure all the vacuum pipes are on etc, but doing what I said in my previous message, will tell you where to start... Could be a wire to the ignition coil perhaps...
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Almost just now.
Choke cable and operation, checked and OK.
Ran for short all pipes hot.
Pulled No 3 plug quite wet at base of thread.
Pulled No 2 & 4 both black on bottom electrode ,No 4 more so, all plugs are new,minutes old.(http://)
Side note prior to taking off the road the engine didn't feel as sweet and smooth as she did say 5000km before, hence the reason for doing shims.
She has sat and not been started for approx 14 month hence carby concern.
Shim settings double checked and ok.
On just starting convinced I have a coolant leak that I can smell but can't see, ----more exploration
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I did notice the secondary air breather filter had degraded so I wonder whether any of that had been sucked in, wouldn't help I guess.
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Hard to diagnose from here. Are all the carb clamps done up? There may be a blockage in one or more of the idle jets From petrol drying out and leaving gum deposits), or perhaps some of that foam filter has gone somewhere it should not. One cylinder being a bit off means they are not balanced. One thing I have come across is that a plug lead might seem to be properly connected to the plug cap, but it may have an intermittent firing problem. In one case I slightly shortened the lead and screwed the cap back in, which solved the problem. But that one was more obvious as one cylinder was cold to the touch on starting. Other things may be the carb diaphragms (a split, not seated properly etc).
Frustrating problems to deal with alright...
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Hey Kappy, you are using fresh fuel as well yeah???
Stale fuel wouldn't be helping your cause.
Tom.
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Yes fresh fuel, plugs etc.
Seems pulling the carbs is the way to go.
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I have a spare engine with carbs if you need anything, however I am going in for spinal surgery on 2nd Oct so you will need to be quick.
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Thanks Yorkie,
I'll keep that in mind.
Unless you know the condition of the set of carbs, I feel I need to pull them out and see what give.
After all they were working prior to me pulling thing to pieces, even though I felt she wasn't that smooth and then she sat for around 14 months, so probably dirty or clogged or something.
I really don't suspect anything with the engine, even this arvo I started her and I can hear the miss in the exhaust and pooping at intake.
Cheers
Kappy
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Kappa, try spraying some carbie cleaner around your carbies and hoses if the rpm increases you have a leak some where,
Cheers Adam
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Well guys I did it, Pulled the carby today quite easy really, four screws, disconnect choke, disconnect fuel line.
Once I pulled the carby out I think I found found my coolant leak seems there's a housing attached to top of block that's connected to metal pipe.
Also observed hose to thermostat is a bit iffy.
Pulled one float cover off a bit of dirt in there also quite a bit of dirt in the fuel from the float chambers, doesn't seem to bad but how much dirt does it take to mess with carbs.
Looking into intake of cylinder No 1 I observed a little more carbon on the valves.
Pic 1 A lever around carby and pop she's out.
Pic 2 A bit of dity in fuel from floats
Pic 3 Float cover is a bit dirty
Pic 4 Think I found my coolant leak, any clear what housing is on top of block, is there a seal there?
Pic 5 Another pic of valley showing possible leak at hose.
(http://)
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I would suggest replacing the 2 hoses under the carbs while you can get to them, they have been known to leak and no point going back again.
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Yes Yorkie, was gonna ring for a quote tomorrow.
Also need the o ring for water cover in the centre.
I was a bit timid about taking out carbs but as long as I don't fiddle too much with adjustments all should be OK.
Also in the process of re painting the front wheel so getting closer.
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Your housing in picture 4 is related to the water pump. The LH radiator hose connects to the other end of the pipe that comes out of it
The little elbows tend to be more of an issue on earlier years as they tended to crack. Mine were ok at timing belt change but I put new ones in anyway but the hoses were on their last legs.
:hijacked I seriously do not know how anyone can use anything like a tab in place of a PC or a laptop other than as a temporary thing. Viewing stuff online is ok but responding to comments is painfully slow. ...... back to topic.
Sent from Samsung 10.1 tab whilst I'm in bed getting over a virus.
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Progress update.
Bike stripped pretty bare, bit scary :H
Well I've stripped the carby and all of it has been thoroughly cleaned quite dirty in parts,
The pilot jets from No 2 & No 4 were a little blocked..
With everything off I observed the butterflies on No 1 & No 4 are slightly open :think1 is this a sync thing, however the butterfly is open at what would zero throttle ,should that be closed tight or not.
What do I mean by slightly open, when I shine torch at bottom of throttle body no light seen other end of No 2 & No 3, light is seen with same test on No 1 & No 4.
(http://)
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The butterflies should be a tiny bit open, a very tiny bit, but they should all be the same... You will be able to adjust the butterflies by turning the idle screw up and down... If the butterflies are uneven, it would indicate a carbie balance issue...
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It's amazing how much dirt accumulates under the carbies....
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On inspection the to neck for the thermostat hoses and in good condition so I wont disturb them
The water cover in the centre of the block however has a leak, have ordered a new O ring, however this has a metal pipe that attaches to the hose that connects the bottom of the radiator, the metal pipe is secured by a bolt to the block between the rear of the timing belt housing and the engine block, has any one any tricks short of removing timing belt. Pic 1 &2
In short the Carbs were in pretty Good condition just full of junk
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The butterflies should be a tiny bit open, a very tiny bit, but they should all be the same... You will be able to adjust the butterflies by turning the idle screw up and down... If the butterflies are uneven, it would indicate a carbie balance issue...
Thanks Assassin, cool so I can a make few minor adjustments while the carbs are, will see if I can match them to No 4, will do a proper sync when all goes back in.
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Yes you can do that... If you have a couple of thou feeler gauge, you might be able to get them fairly even... Whilst the carbs are off, cover the intake manifolds as well... One of the butterflies is a stationary one, usually number three. All the others adjust to that one...
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Progress report.
Finally got all my parts in dribs and drabs.
Re assembly is making progress,re installing the carbs was a bitch, but got em in.
(http://)
New tyres,new rotors and pads and new top box.
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Like the rotors Kappy. Where did you get those from?
Cheers!
Nate
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Hi Nate
Got them of Fleabay,
http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/Disc-Brake-Rotor-front-Honda-ST1100-Shadow-VT1100-Triumph-900-/300403102042?pt=AU_Motorcycle_Parts_Accessories&hash=item45f16b915a (http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/Disc-Brake-Rotor-front-Honda-ST1100-Shadow-VT1100-Triumph-900-/300403102042?pt=AU_Motorcycle_Parts_Accessories&hash=item45f16b915a)
Probably made in china but are Aussie supplier, I think the price is right.
Will be a week or two before I see how good they are.
Cheers
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Hi Nate
Got them of Fleabay,
[url]http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/Disc-Brake-Rotor-front-Honda-ST1100-Shadow-VT1100-Triumph-900-/300403102042?pt=AU_Motorcycle_Parts_Accessories&hash=item45f16b915a[/url] ([url]http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/Disc-Brake-Rotor-front-Honda-ST1100-Shadow-VT1100-Triumph-900-/300403102042?pt=AU_Motorcycle_Parts_Accessories&hash=item45f16b915a[/url])
Probably made in china but are Aussie supplier, I think the price is right.
Will be a week or two before I see how good they are.
Cheers
I purchased some disc rotors for the front of the CB1300 from these guys a few years back, picked-em-up from their shop in Mitcham, VIC (McKeon Road, me thinks), good to look the seller in the eyes and know where he is, rather than some email address or PO Box no.
Anyway, they were as good as the OEMs. I was happy with mine.
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A few have used that style of rotor, seem to work ok. Others like the metalgear ones look more OEM.
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Update
Just started her up, started quite quickly really considering carbs where dry, however can;t get her to idle. :H
Any obvious clues, I think I put everthing back how I found it.
Pulled carbs again as I could smell coolant and could see coolant under bike, seems running one off new hoses will need to check connections are fine.
Cheers
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One of the vacuum hoses my be off, or the idle stop needs to adjusted a bit. By not idleing, do you mean engine stops??
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Hi Brock,
Release of throttle engine stops
I pulled the carb again to locate leak.
Maybe radiator cap a tad loose and coolant ran down hose to valley, as all connection solid including junctions in valley that have new O rings.
Have rechecked vacuum lines I thought were all intact, cant see any obvious.had to walk away too many flies in shed.
As re connecting carby to rubber boots is a bitch, would considered opinion be to remove boots from valley, attach to carby and refit that way?
Open to suggestions, as maybe idle issue maybe that air leak when connections.
Do float levels affect idle?
The only screw I see that is a adjustable is the screw set , 2 1/2 turns i believe. can this affect idle?
Cheers
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had a similar problem when i put the carbys back on. thought it was a carby clogging problem or dirt in the carbys. turned out to be 2 of the rubber sleeves connecting the carby had folded at the lip and were not creating a good enough vacuum to work properly. would rough idle and need the choke to start.
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Good Idea difficult to see good seal or not, will remove again and check rubber boots.
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Well guys update on AnaSTasia.
After pull carbs again double check everything, check coolant leak all good.
So I lube up the manifold boots and the carbs seem to go back a little easier this time, maybe just practice.
Check all linkages vacuum lines, hold my breath Ignition blast off, still needed choke once again no idle, :H
So adjust idle cable and manage to maintain idle at around 1100-1200rpm.
Pull out Yorkies carby sync tool
Check No 4 which is base reading 5.5
No 1 10.5
No 3 8.5
No 2 7.5
A little bit out one would say, so I adjust all and reduce idle to normal and guess what I have idle.
However still note quite right, so for whater ever reason I stert pulling of plug leads.
Remove No 2 lead very noticeable change.
Remove No 4 lead same result
Remove No 3 lead same result
Remove No 1 and almost no change and as I pulling cap out of plug hole i notice the end of the cap arch all the way out.
So I think its fair to say lead may be faulty, all the others no arcing.
Maybe fair to say my problem all along, why didn't I check 1st don't know.
Anyway my Carbs are nice and clean .
So Yorkie please add to my list of goodies I need to pick up from you.
Cheers
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Consider it added
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Question anyone,once I replace suspect plug lead, is it likely I need to re assess the carby sync.
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No need to resync, but looking wont hurt
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Although only running on 3 cylinders and pretty much in skeleton mode, had short run down the driveway (driveway is 500 metres)
Actually started without choke and only a tad throttle
(http://)
Felt New fork seal and fluid seemed good, will have to wait for the bitumen to bed the new front pads and rotors in.
Been well over a year since I've been on back and actually ridden her (sounds dirty)
So all I need now is plug lead indicator control and get her dressed again.
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Just an update,
I meet up with Yorkie yesterday and obtained a spare plug lead from him.
So after several tests I have come to the conclusion that neither the coils ,leads or plugs are faulty.
So it looks like I may have to pull the carbies apart again.
I can get her to idle once warm, but tell still right, still getting pops in intake and minor back fires at the exhaust.
I'm unable to fathom why when I pull either plug lead from right bank there appears no difference in the running however if i pull a plug from left bank it stalls.
Seems as though running on 2 cylinders and pull one plug from left bank and then really only running on 1, so stall.
Plugs on right side seem quite wet, so is that a mixture issue?
As I see it the only two aspects that are adjustable are the screw and the float?????
Any suggestions please.
May raw fuel is going into exhaust as it gets warm the exhaust starts smoking.
Cheers
Kappy
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I had something very similar happen when I did my timing belt.....something I did fixed it but what? I'm guessing that because of the loose clamp to much air was getting in one cylinder and creating what sounded like a misfire.
Because of the age of the bike I put new carb insulators (they get hard after 14 years) in: which made the carbs seat in easier.
http://ozstoc.com/index.php?topic=2977.msg38722#msg38722 (http://ozstoc.com/index.php?topic=2977.msg38722#msg38722)
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Just an update guys,
My carby insulators arrived yesterday and they have been fitted, wow feel a whole different to the ones I removed.
Anyway as I have the carby's removed again, I'm double checking everything.like needle and seats etc;
Now I know number 3 was not firing and I have since checked leads and plugs and there is a good fat spark on the plug at that cylinder so must be something else :crazy
Is anyone able to advise me how I can check the float level and whether if the levl is wrong would that prevent fuel getting into that cahmber.
As I have to float cover off and as I move the carbs around so the float moves as well.
No point re installing carbs till I cover all options.
Cheers
Kappy
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You can download the workshop manual from 1100 section if you don't already have it.
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Well I'm just about done. I mean :||||
I've re fitted the new isolaters.
I re vsited the carby and re checked float levels, pilots tets,
Seems I had Pilot screw out 2.5 turns and seeing Aussie bikes are the same as Canadian they only come 1 7/8.
So all reset, re fit carbys.
Turn on, ignition and away we go, away we go a lot better than last time, re sync carbys but still a little back fire from exhasut, mosting on back off.
However as temp increased, all of a sudden stalled and wouldn't idle so fiddle with idle ajustment and manage to stablize idle.
Now while running sorta OK just not quite right, just don't what else to do.
Does anyone know a carby specialist in WA that's not gonna sting me.
I wouldn't think that pilots, idle jets etc would need replacing at 97K.
Help
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This is an experience I had with a XR600 start up cold would run find 10 to 15minutes it would start back firing ,popping lose power
it was just like it was starving for fuel it would behave like when you run out and had to turn to reserve . I would pull the carbie off clean it refit it, tune and it would run find for 10 to 15 sometimes you mite get 1/2 hr to 1hr I pulled the carbie out more than a dozen times , bought another carbie, played with float levels, finally got the shits with it and took it to bike mechanic . He said it fuel problem. pulled carbie out cleaned it . after he had done it twice he got the shits and threw his hands in the air as well . Just for shits and giggles we pulled the CDI unit out of a Chinese quad he had in the shop stuck it in the XR and BAM the thing was lethal. rode it for 18 months never missed a beat So all I am saying is that it may not be carbie problem when the XR was running properly you could tune it- when it started to play up you could turn the mixture screw to where ever you liked and nothing would change
Hope this helps
Peter
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One of Lionel's st1100s had a problem with one spark plug cap not contacting the lead consistently. Spark was intermittent so hard to track. Someone must have been pulling on the lead to take it off. You could try doing a spark test with a plug with a big gap. In this case slightly trimming the lead solved the problem.
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I have already given him another lead, prior to that he was getting spark at the plug, wondering if the problem is in the ignition control module when it starts to get warm or connection through side stand switch or something similar.
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Haven't had much chance to check everything today.
However something I mentioned before and I don't know whether its normal or not.
Started her this arvo, and idle OK, but still not that smooth ST sound and feel we all know.
Now while running I remove lead 1 and or 3 and there is no noticeable change in running.
However when I remove No 2 lead, 1,3 and 4 still attached and noticed change. when I remove No 4 with 1,2,and 3 still attached notice changed and almost stall.
Surely if a plug is removed there should be some change, yes???
Cheers
Stumped
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A dumb question,
Have you tried swapping No1 and No3?
Cheers winston66
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Havent read all of the comments and or the posts.
Have you done a compression check on all of the cylinders , If you have done the tappet (valve)clearances how do the pressures on all the cylinders compare now?
In my previous post I was alluding to swapping over the plug leads for cylinders one and Three.
Cheers Winston66
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Haven't done a compression test, don't have the gear to test.
I think swapping No 1 & No 3 plugs leads wont work as I feel the prob is on right side, i will try later when cooler swapping over no 1 and no 2 .
Can the voltage at the lead be tested with a multi meter?
Any comments on Now while running I remove lead 1 and or 3 and there is no noticeable change in running.
However when I remove No 2 lead, 1,3 and 4 still attached and noticed change. when I remove No 4 with 1,2,and 3 still attached notice changed and almost stall..
Cheers
Kappy
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Can the voltage at the lead be tested with a multi meter?
No!!! You will toast the meter, we are talking mega volts here..
Pulling No3 & 1 with no change tells me something maybe wrong with the leads or coils. I think 1 & 3 are off the same coil..
Could be wrong but. Each coil feeds two plugs at once, going bang depends on whether its the firing or exhaust stroke.
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If disconnecting any lead in particular produces a change in how the motor runs would tell me that the cylinder from which that particular lead that was just disconnected was operating properly, Ie that it had both fuel and spark.
If disconnecting another lead did not produce any change, then either the spark or fueling to that cylinder is faulty or missing. You have said that the spark plugs of cylinders one and three were wet, so I assume that they are getting fuel but then they do not fire so I can assume that there is no spark. therefore, is there any activation of the respective ignition coils. I am not conversant with the 1100 ignition system , I have the 1300 model.
If there are separate ignition coils for each cylinder is it possible that the primary feed to each coil has either been interrupted or inadvertently transposed to the other coil, that is why I suggested that you swap the spark plug leads from No. one and No. three.
A multi meter is not suitable to test the high voltage output of an ignition coil.
A bad adjustment , (too tight) ,to the tappets will probably cause a hard starting and very rough idle problem as the respective cylinders will not be able to obtain the correct compression for efficient operation.
Cheers , Winston66
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Thanks about the Multi meter I thought as much just asking.
Yes there are two coil one feeds 1 & 3 and the other 2 & 4.
There appears to be spark, but doesnt seem that strong, if its weak will that affect the running or will any spark cause ignition.
I have double checked my settings on the tappets, actually about 4 times, and the shims that were changed were a thou.
If the carby is out slightly will that affect one side not firing properly?
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A weak spark under compression may not spark at all, or provide week ignition so the fuel air mix doesnt burn properly.
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I'd be looking at getting hold of another coil to replace the one that feeds 1 & 3. Should be able to score one from a wrecker pretty cheap or maybe even ebay.
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Well I just went out and swapped no 3 and No 1 leads no change.
So idle for about 10 mins to see if I could get a sense of anything, so felt pipe near engine, left side hot, right side cold.
Hence when I remove say no 4 plug she stalls, even a good 4 cylinder cant run on 1 cylinder.
So either right coil,
OR can carbys adjustment be so fart out to having this affect even though each carby re assembled with same basic setting, really only fine tuning a as I see it.
Is it possible Iv'e missed a vacuum line somewhere?
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Well I just went out and swapped no 3 and No 1 leads no change.
So idle for about 10 mins to see if I could get a sense of anything, so felt pipe near engine, left side hot, right side cold.
Hence when I remove say no 4 plug she stalls, even a good 4 cylinder cant run on 1 cylinder.
So either right coil,
OR can carbys adjustment be so fart out to having this affect even though each carby re assembled with same basic setting, really only fine tuning a as I see it.
Is there a simple way to test coil?
Is it possible Iv'e missed a vacuum line somewhere?
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You could try swapping the coils, and see if the problem swaps..
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You could try swapping the coils, and see if the problem swaps..
Brock as the coils are not readily accessible, do you know an easy way to do that?
Is it possible to swap the feed wires to opposite coil without having to remove?
May be a job for Wednesday, Doctors appointment MON & TUES.
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Havent had to look at the coils, so dont know how hard to do, it may be possible to swap the leads over.
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I have a spare pair of coils, I think you would have to remove the radiator to change them.
I don't think it would be possible to swap leads, (both electrical and ignition), without removing the radiator, the coils would have to be turned around.
As previous, I don't think it is a fuel problem.
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Got them out, just a bit fiddly, there has to be a way testing, with a multi meter.
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A multimeter will check resistance of the coils, but it could be breaking down internally You need some special stuff for that..
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Kappy, easiest solution would be to swap out with known working one. If Yorkie has a couple to loan for testing then just do that. I think it will be a coil issue as well or something related to spark on those cylinders.
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Ok my turn >:()
Age old problem with electrics and coils is earthing out properly. You appear to be on track trying to isolate the problem one item at a time. I would have said also to change the spark plugs but as two are affected at the same time the coils appear to be the issue.
You're in good hands with advice from the guru :grin
My 2c
:wht11
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Thanks Wombat wish I had heard that earlier.
I've swapped coils and leads and plugs and the issue hasn't shifted.
So like you say an earthing issue.
I found something on another forum that implies a common wiring issue, which is the same side as I have.
http://www.st-owners.com/forums/showthread.php?77352-ST1100-ignition-problem-NOT-solved-Yet- (http://www.st-owners.com/forums/showthread.php?77352-ST1100-ignition-problem-NOT-solved-Yet-)!!
So next step in a few days is to play with wiring.
Cheers
Kappy
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Just an update and fishing for some electrical expertise.
I've removed the coils from the bike and I have a el cheepo multimeter which I only know half how to use.
Iv'e checked resistance on the end of the plug leads and falls withing manual specs.
However when I check for resistance on other connections when I get readings it starts at say .4 and watch the reading fall 000.1 or 000
When I check the 3P connector to primary coil there seems as one side has power or resistance left side and no reading for right side where the problem lies.
So we are getting to an area that's like a foreign country to me, so can I ask the Gurus with advise they use simple language.
Cheers
Kappy
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I will have a look at the testing when i get a few minutes spare, and post what I can find out. Unless some one beats me to it.
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I'm not sure how good my multi meter is and I'm not sure about.
The upshot is I believe the coils,leads and plugs are OK and probably the carbys.
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There are 3 wires on 3p connector, black/white is common earth for both coils, the other 2 get power from ignition control module. I have a second hand unit if you need to try it. The common earth goes through bank angle relay.
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Hey Kappy, if someone can point you in the right direction to download a manual from this site section 18-5 and 18-7 will help.
I got mine from here but I am crap at working out how to load stuff.
I took 2 pictures but the files are too big.
Those two sections will show you how to troubleshoot and test the coils.
From what I have read it points to your ICM.
Hope this helps.
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Also there is a slight difference in the wiring between the standard and ABS models which is also in section 18.
Regards, Tom.
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Thanks Panman,
I have the Manual and I feel the coils are OK, I think its prior to all that, maybe the wiring leading up to that.
I'm waiting for the Guru/ ;-*
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Hi
Been doing some tests to figure out why the right bank is not firing.
I have swapped coils and the issue is still there , may reveal coils are fine.
Done some resistance test on coils and as far as I can comprehend seems ok.
Now when I test the the leads to coils I get a sorts of a reading for the left bank and none at all from the lead that feeds the right bank. (pic)
The same occurs when I test the Yellow/Blue and Blue /Yellow lead at the ICM.(Pic)
Need some guidance where to coil wire originates from as well as where the earth is grounded.
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The black/white is the earth, I doubt that is the problem as a common earth will affect both coils. The coils get supplied from the ICM, this creates the spark when required.
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I followed the colours to the ICM but don't know enough about what powers those wires.
Some of the readings I get don't make sense, but I feel there is a flaw that feeds the right bank.
I been spraying electrical cleanser on heaps of connections.
Somehow need to find if there is a breakdown in the wiring without having strip everything apart.
Fast running out of enthusiasm. :H
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find the same 2 wires on ICM plug and check resistance between the and the coil ends, both should be almost zero, if they are it is a safe bet the ICM is the problem.
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Latest up date.
Yorkie lent me an ICM to test, before I go into that.
I have swapped the coils around, swapped Plugs and leads and still right bank does not fire.
I did compression test the other day
Cyl 1 185 psi.
Cyl 3 170 psi.
Cyl 2 150 psi.
Cyl 4 150 psi.
So me thinks compression's are OK.
Back to Yorkie's ICM, plugged into Bike, checked all leads, ignition and left bank fires ......right bank nothing.
So I'm stumped, can the carby be so far out even though everything was put back the way I took everything apart, pretty sure about that???
So when I did shims is it possible maybe I cocked up and have the intake stroke as the exhaust stroke ??????
Will need to double check just to be be sure before I pull the carby off again???
I welcome suggestion Please..
Cheers
Kappy
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Kappy
going to jump in again. I have just read the posts again and offer this suggestion. It is hard to understand what you are experiencing and it may be prudent for a couple of us to visit you and observe and listen to the STead. A second set of eyes and ears may be helpful although Pit Crew says i cant find anything in front of my eyes and I dont hear her when its important. Fuel does not seem to be the problem so I wouldnt touch the carbies. Electrical issues may be an issue such as something shorting out when hot etc. My STead usually wont idle with standard plugs without choke so you may have a couple of issues clouding the main problem.
Regards Wombat
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Hi Kappy, First off top marks for your getting in and getting your hands dirty and not being daunted by the work. I really mean it. Well done. As tough as it is and as super frustrating as it gets sometimes, you are getting some really good experiance in all of this that you can in turn help someone else with.
If I read this right, and if I am understanding things correctly,
She does not want to idle properly and is hard to start especially when cold.
No 3 does not want to fire.
Does #3 fire at higher engine revs?
Checked coils & ignition, plugs etc ... All seem OK.
So going back to the carbs,
Each carby has 2 significant jets ( not counting the needle valve metering) There is the idle or pilot jet and the main jet.
Pilot or Idle Jet below
(http://i1380.photobucket.com/albums/ah174/ST1100PY/My%20Bike/Carbs/pilotjet_zpsb2e9bc5c.jpg) (http://s1380.photobucket.com/user/ST1100PY/media/My%20Bike/Carbs/pilotjet_zpsb2e9bc5c.jpg.html)
Main Jet
(http://i1380.photobucket.com/albums/ah174/ST1100PY/My%20Bike/Carbs/Mains_zpse9243cab.jpg) (http://s1380.photobucket.com/user/ST1100PY/media/My%20Bike/Carbs/Mains_zpse9243cab.jpg.html)
The idle jet is providing fuel at idle and should continue to provide a small amount of fuel as revs increase. However as the revs do increase the main jet cuts in and provides a higher volumn of fuel needed.
From the symptoms it sort of sounds to me that #3 idle jet is blocked. This would meen at idle it wont fire because it has no fuel feed. Get the revs up and the main jet will provide fuel so it should start to fire but it might be running a liitle lean at revs because its getting slightly less fuel than the other 3 carbys are supplying. It would definatly run like a hairy he goat at idlle and perhaps a tad less than optimum at lower midrange revs and near perfect at high revs.
If this fits the symptoms then I would go back to carby 3 and pull the iddle jet and make sure its clean and can pass fuel.
I had my sons VTR250 fuel go off and foul his carby's. The residual gum blocked his pilot jets. It was tough to clean as well because the holes were small and the gum was very tough. I boiled the jets. And (not advocating this) I used a single steel wire from my wire brush to clean it out. Nothing else would unclog the jets. Sharp steel on fairly soft brass pilot jets is not very good, and I may have reamed the jets in the process but ... it works fine now.
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Thanks guys
Wombat that sounds like an excellent idea, I would welcome the extra eyes and the company, difficult to get way from here at time.
Piet, No 1 and No 3 aren't firing at all, I've just about covered every electrical possibility.
Just this afternoon,I removed the plugs of 1 & 3 and thoroughly cleaned them with carby cleaner and dry them thoroughly.
After re installing fired up and ran for 10 minutes, stopped removed No3 and guess what dry as a bone, repeated running for 10 minutes removed No 1 also dry.
So convinced no fuel.
Spoke with Chris from Honda shop, he confirmed that sitting for nearly 2 years presents problem and O ring etc should be replaced after clean plus may need a further clean may have pushed varnish into a Small hole.
Pretty sure timing is right, actually runs quite smoothly on 2 cylinders, considering.
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If the problem is blocked idle jets due to a build up of gum and other residue, I would try adding on a regular and ongoing basis some good fuel additive to the petrol.
I have found that a product called F10 is an excellent fuel conditioner and I have been using it for many years in any vehicle that I have had, Even in my vegetable oil fueled diesels.
I am currently using it as a injector , Carb cleaner , Fuel stabiliser -conditioner in my Statesman, MX5, and the three motorcycles.and a stationery 10 HP diesel generator set
Since starting to use the F10 I can honestly say that I have never had any fuel type problems in any of the associated motors.
Naturally if the problem is a blocked idle jet any fuel additive possibly might not work until it has had a chance to get through the offending jet and clean it out.
Cheers Winson66
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OK, so 1 & 3 are not getting fuel.
I know this is really an obvious question. After the cleaning of the carbs and putting them back ... then later you had them out again. On the 2nd (or more) time out, did the bowls on the #1 and #3 carbs have fuel in them? Could it be that the fuel is not filling those 2 carby's?
I know the answer must be yes they had fuel.
I am not sure we can do this easily, as I am thinking about engines in general not ST11 specific. Are you able to start the engine with the air box off? Or at least with the option to put your hand over the air inlet side of the either #1 or # 3 carby? If yes. What I would do is with the engine running at lets say 2000 or so revs. I would block the inlet to a carb completely. This should create a large vacuum and pull lots of fuel through the carb and into the cyclinder.
If your hand gets wet with fuel or you know fuel is arriving then you might be able to regulate the mixture very crudely by progressively applying your hand as a choke. Either richer mixture by closing or leaner by removing, allowing more air. If we have spark, timing is good, and some fuel going down its throat we should be able to get a suitable mixture to get that cylinder to fire and run, rough but working. I would do the same with the other as well.
Is this possible?
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An easy way to tell if it is carbies or electrical is remove air cleaner and pour a little (emphasise little) petrol into one of the right carbies . . Try starting does it fire . . Same with the other carbi . . Does that cylinder fire . . Finally try a squirt into both right carbis and see what happens . . If they are firing . . Albeit for only a short time . . You probably do not have an electrical problem . . . Carbies likely at fault.
Having said all that it is strange that both carbies would be experiencing the same problem at the same time whereas the lefties are not . . But you have swapped the coils and leads around and the problem remains with the right side . . Maybe a faulty ICM but you have replaced that and still a problem . . All wiring disconnected, cleaned, tested and reconnected?
All spark plugs replaced with new ones?
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As STroppy said, good idea, or try some carbie cleaner or "start you bastard" instead of fuel if that helps.
Yeap it's spark and/or fuel. Now which or both :think1
Did you change the float levels at all ??? Should be 7mm from memory.
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OK, found the website I have used before, you may have already seen this one, if, so disregard.
http://koczarski.com/ST1100/CarbRebuild/Carbs.htm (http://koczarski.com/ST1100/CarbRebuild/Carbs.htm)
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Ive cleaned the carby but maybe not as well I had expected.
Anyway thanks Stroppy and Abe, I never thought of that, thats why 2 or 3 heads are better than 1,so just been out to the shed and sprayed a little "Start Ya Bastard" in the air intake of 1 & 3 and yes fired.
So one would think Carbs.
So think I'll get a kit and do all the O rings etc, I've come this and its pieces may as well do it properly as already done.
Fork seals and fluid,
New tyres, and dyna beads,
New front rotors and pads,
Coolant change
Bled clutch and brake systems,
Shims replacement (bit picky but I'm a bit like that)
New spark plugs,
Replaced front wheel (old one had bend in it, don't ask long boring old story)
New battery.
New Top box
That's about it ATM.
How things are ATM(http://)
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Those idle jets clog up very easily as they are fine. An ultrasonic cleaner can clean them out. Physically cleaning them is hard as they are so fine.
When using stronger carb cleaner make sure no rubber o rings are in the carbs as it eats them.
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Pulled the carbies off, again and started stripping awaiting carbie kit.
I seem to have hit a stumbling block and need some advise.
How easy is it separate say No1 and No3.
I need to access cut out valve that is between No1 & No 3 and No 2 & No 4
May as well do the job properly and replace all o rings etc.
(http://)
Pics attached
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You may be going into uncharted territory there, not heard of anybody doing it previously.
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Think your right Yorkie the connecting rods appear pressed in may have to take a punt on the diaphragm/o rings are fine on the cap I can't reach.
When I sprayed cleaner in the hole that accesses this area and lot of dark/amber liquid came out, so I sprayed till it ran clear.
I don't think its an area causing the issue.
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Just thought I would update my progress.
Inquiries with Honda put a carby kit, gaskets and O rings at about $50 each ex Japan 2-3 weeks.
Also the air cut valve set from Honda is excess of $100.
I stubbled across http://www.motorcyclespareswarehouse.com.au/search?q=st1100 (http://www.motorcyclespareswarehouse.com.au/search?q=st1100) .that has Air cut valve set at $12.80 and complete carby rebuild kit at $35, includes all jets O rings and springs. handy as I lost a spring of one of the screw sets. ++ plus express post $11.50 should be here early next week ordered yesterday already posted.
Screw sets, Idle jets and slow jets are extra from Honda.
Can some confirm Aussie jet sizes the only one I can find seems to be US, that being Main jet #128 Slow jet #38.
I believe the brand from this mob is the same the mob that make the Carby, Keihin :think1
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Jet sizes vary a little depending on year and market, but mains would generally be #128 for Australia (down to #125 for Califoria types), slow jet most likely #38, except for Canada in 91 to 96 which was #40. A common modification was to put in a #40 jet. I used the same kit and it has everything.
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Yes Saaz, I surprised what was in the kit, plus the cost compared to Honda stuff and more than likely is the same stuff.
The Honda parts man suggested I look on eBay which led me to another link, probably saved at least $100 and will have the parts quicker than OEM.
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I am hoping to continue on from the Border Run to WA in early August so may be able to catch up and hopefully all problems solved :beer
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cool :thumbs
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Just an update.
Carby kit in each carby,stayed with same main jet as the replacement was #38 stay with the #40.
Replaced slow jet #128.
On installing the screw set I set it at 2 turns, as all info I could find was 2 1/2 turns which appears to be for US models and 1 7/8 which seams to be for Canadian models. Figures I can always fine turn that later if needed.
Ignition after a few cranks she started and fired on all 4 Yeeha, some minor balancing and smooth as silk.
Couldn't resist so small run down the drive, all good did a small video but couldn't load here so its here
https://www.facebook.com/wayne.kaplin (https://www.facebook.com/wayne.kaplin)
So now a good clean and re assemble.
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Great news Kappy, congrats on a job well done. :thumbsup
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:clap :clap :clap :clap, excellent result.
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:clap :clap ++
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great work Kappy. :runyay Just got my Stead back together after maintenance so hope to see you on the road sometime. :grin
:wht11
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Saturday morning and all back to together apart from screen waiting for some clips to arrive, could resist the urge to take a run into town, as I needed to to fill the tank after fiddling and adjusting.
Nice feeling to be back on two wheels again, even went alright on the 4 k's of gravel I have to negotiate to get the black top, was wporth doing new fork seals and new oil.
Thought I'd detour to the Gull before going into town and as I pull in there's 3 ST,s parked and there's Yorkie,Wombat and Pezz.
So after a short chat they continued off to farther horizons and I headed into town for a Cappuccino.
On my way home I decide to record part of my trip. After I set up video I start AnnaSTasia and I notice a weird mechanical noise evident at start of video any clues, however when I get home and park up noise seems to have gone, seems to have come in when engine is warm, although when cold I can hear sorta tappety sound not sure.
http://s1201.photobucket.com/user/Kappy5003/media/P2210346_zpse5frx4e8.mp4.html?o=0 (http://s1201.photobucket.com/user/Kappy5003/media/P2210346_zpse5frx4e8.mp4.html?o=0)
Also discovered that the front brake doesn't seem to be releasing, brand new rotors and pads, not sure that is actual prob, am I gonna have pull the calipers apart?????
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No access to the video, wrong permissions I guess.
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I've changed the video site, should be visible now.
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Cant find it Kappy, just takes me to you facebook page
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http://s1201.photobucket.com/user/Kappy5003/media/P2210346_zpse5frx4e8.mp4.html?o=0 (http://s1201.photobucket.com/user/Kappy5003/media/P2210346_zpse5frx4e8.mp4.html?o=0)
This time Brock.
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:runyay
It is a bit rattley, mine does that some times as well. It may need a carb ballance, or a good long run to blow the cobwebs out.
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I did a carb balance I will do again before I return carb tool to Yorkie.
Plus I set the screw set at 2 turns cos not sure whether 1 7/8 or 2 1/2 were correct.
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Mine can be a bit rattley as well, if idle speed is below 100rpm. Clutchg in solves most of it, but there is a bit of noise from a loose cog on the left camshaft, some slight play which is not unusual. It has been the same for the last 140,000kms or so, so is not a worry.
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Sound seems to come from left front corner.
Having just replaced front rotors and new pads,has any one experienced front calipers, seems mainly left not releasing.
So much so that when moving backwards, ie parking or pushing forward is real hard work.
Also be heard squeaking when riding at slow speed, evidence of pads rubbing on rotors
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Having just replaced front rotors and new pads,has any one experienced front calipers, seems mainly left not releasing.
So much so that when moving backwards, ie parking or pushing forward is real hard work.
Also be heard squeaking when riding at slow speed, evidence of pads rubbing on rotors
There's a whole thread on the subject here:
http://ozstoc.com/index.php?topic=8711.msg101505#msg101505 (http://ozstoc.com/index.php?topic=8711.msg101505#msg101505)
More here:
http://ozstoc.com/index.php?topic=7329.msg84106#msg84106 (http://ozstoc.com/index.php?topic=7329.msg84106#msg84106)
and there's an even longer one if you keep searching.
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Hi Guys
Just an update.
Think I sorted the brake jamming, cleaned up around the caliper piston now releases.
Went for a run to Narrogin and back yesterday to clean out the pipes so to speak.
Although the brakes are not binding now, I noticed something of a vibration at almost stopped, just wonder as I did the forks recently whether the anti dive has anything to do with that.
Now that I fixed the brakes, i now notice the handling around 120 upwards not as stable as before, seemed OK last week when I went into town :||||
Anyway on the carby, On my way to Narrogin noticed power not as smooth as I'm used to, seems lacking. Anyway the same rattly noise still there so I return home and let everything cool off, then decide to remove a spark plug either side to compare colour after approx 200km.
(http://)
The one on left is from right hand side and the one of the right the left side slight difference in colour. All 4 plugs are quite new.
Then pulled out air cleaner and did quick balance check, seems as though a little out even though did before.
Later in evening I started her when cold and noticed popping from carb inlet.
This morning started again real cold and same popping. So mid morning I pulled off filter housing and and run engine to operating temp maintsing around 2000rpm and again balance carbs, checking and double checking.
Reduce to idle and engine temp around half and now i notice running quite smooth and engine doesn't seem as rattly. I wonder ???