Author Topic: Can You Mix Engine Oils  (Read 11585 times)

Offline alans1100

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Can You Mix Engine Oils
« on: January 17, 2013, 04:28:17 PM »
We've all heard the usual hype about "once you use synthetc oil you can't go back to normal oil" or other similar claims. Valvoline says different.

http://www.valvoline.com/faqs/motor-oil/full-synthetic-motor-oil/

Interesting is Question 22 as it applies to us

Is it safe to use SynPower in a motorcycle with a wet clutch?

No. Valvoline SynPower oils are not approved for use with a wet clutch.


They haven't approved synthetic oil for use in motorcycles with a wet clutch.  So how does that effect us?

Question 23 says their oil is compatible with other brands of oil so is any synthetc oil suitable for wet clutches?


Question 4

Is it ok to switch back and forth between regular and synthetic motor oil? I heard this causes leaks? Is this true?
 
Switching between synthetic and conventional oil does not cause problems. Because the oils are compatible, you can switch back and forth as often as you like.

Question 5

Can you mix different types of motor oil? For example, synthetic and synthetic blend or regular and synthetic? Is this going to cause problems?
 
Mixing synthetic and conventional oils will not cause any problems. The oils are compatible with each other.






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Offline saaz

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Re: Can You Mix Engine Oils
« Reply #1 on: January 17, 2013, 06:17:09 PM »
I have swapped between all sorts of oils before with no problems.  In some older ones you may have to be careful as years of build up rubbish may be stopping oil leaks (eg the old rope seal on the rear bearing of a holden V8 motor!)

Penrite have a range of synthetic oils theses days, but not all are recommended for wet clutches.  Probably to do with some of the oils meant to replace 'fuel conserving' oils, so they may contain friction modifiers that may not be great for wet clutches.  Penrite now say if an oil (mineral/synthetic/semi-synthetic) is suitable for wet clutches.  For some oils you can probably work it out if it does not promote fuel conservation
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Re: Can You Mix Engine Oils
« Reply #2 on: January 18, 2013, 03:10:31 PM »
Great informative post thanks Alan.

I happen to know that if you mix a tank of diesel and ULP petrol in the one engine, you're in a world of hurt!          :fp


I have returned to using... (don't laugh).... Shell Helix Diesel Oil and Ryco Z436 oil filter nowadays as no significant performance/economy boost from their expensive cousins was noticed.


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Offline rocketeer

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Re: Can You Mix Engine Oils
« Reply #3 on: February 28, 2013, 06:16:09 AM »
They are generally talking about group III base stocks.  Very briefly, Groups I, II and III are all 'dinosaur juice', Group IV and V are other things, though through a court case in the 80's Castrol won the right to call it's Group III dinosaur juice a 'synthetic'. Generally groups I, II and III all mix without issue, whereas true synthetic group IV and V don't.  For the purpose of clarity, I refer to group III as mineral, although it can be legally marketed as synthetic.

How do you know what group you are using?  There is no legislation to force oil manufacturers to specify, so when you're talking mixabilty, don't do it unless in an emergency, and you're going to change soon after.    You can use MSDS to look for clues, but who does that?  (no really I do but who else does?)

General rule of thumb- true synthetics, group IV and V synthetics for new engines.  Group I, II and III Minerals for new or old engines.   True synthetics tend to be 10w and thinner (not all 10w are synthetic), some might contain the words 'ester" (which can also be an additive in mineral oils- very expensive but good synthetic lubricant).  In saying that, some 20w50 and 25w60 blends are group III, and can be legally marketed as synthetic, but aren't ;)

Why synthetics vs mineral?  Marketing.  Synthetics are better in some circumstance, minerals in others.  But marketing will dictate that synthetics win everytime. 

Which to use without a testing regime?  Which feels best, gives better gearchanges, less vibrations, etc etc.
 

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Re: Can You Mix Engine Oils
« Reply #4 on: February 28, 2013, 06:41:00 AM »
I once replaced the mineral oil in my Yamaha XJR1300 with a Castrol synthetic motorcycle oil, thinking that I was doing the bike a favour.   Nothing could have been further from the truth.   All seemed fine for a little while, but the clutch became really heavy and at one stage I couldn't even pull in the lever on the hydraulic clutch as the plates had stuck together.  Gear changes became very rough and clunky.    To set things right, I needed to remove and clean the clutch plates and of course go back to the recommended mineral oil.  Synthetic was NOT a good experience for me.
« Last Edit: February 28, 2013, 03:45:27 PM by StinkyPete »
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Offline Tipsy

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Re: Can You Mix Engine Oils
« Reply #5 on: February 28, 2013, 08:58:07 AM »
 :wht11 py
I use Penrite Diesel Oil in mine and have been now for sometime,
smoother gear changes and I can now see the oil level,

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Offline saaz

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Re: Can You Mix Engine Oils
« Reply #6 on: February 28, 2013, 03:40:05 PM »
I have found over the years that the 15W-40 diesel oils work well in the ST11. The 10W-40 diesel oils seem to break down a bit quicker in hot weather, leading to a clunkier gear shift.  10W-xx synthetic oils seem to work fine for the Honda oil change period and beyond if you want.  Many have just used the cheapest oil available with Honda oil change intervals, with 200,000 miles plus bike life. Lack of maintenance in other areas tend to cause more grief.
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Offline Gatey

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Re: Can You Mix Engine Oils
« Reply #7 on: May 12, 2013, 02:49:57 PM »
My SH  03 ST1300  has a sticker on the back...."Neo Synthetic Oil". A sticker I guess came with a can of the stuff.

Anyone know about this oil? The history that came with this bike holds no clue's  and the previous owner is riding the cloud's these days.
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Offline Streak

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Re: Can You Mix Engine Oils
« Reply #8 on: May 12, 2013, 02:52:13 PM »
Sounds like you should change your oil, and throw that sticker far far away...
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Offline saaz

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Re: Can You Mix Engine Oils
« Reply #9 on: May 12, 2013, 03:01:59 PM »
http://www.neosyntheticoil.com/category/products/engine-oil

All sounds like good stuff, if the right one was used, and probabaly not cheap. Then again, the stickers might be cheap!

When I buy a bike I always treat it as if all the regular maintenance needs to be brought up to date, so do all the regular service itmes and start from there.
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Offline rocketeer

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Re: Can You Mix Engine Oils
« Reply #10 on: May 12, 2013, 03:05:18 PM »
No real tech data available, it talks the right language but without some solid figures to back it up it's hard to make a judgement.

There are so many oil companies in America- with such a large population anyone can approach a manufacturer and order a blend.  Same can be done in Australia, but it's far more difficult to survive here unless you are doing something fairly proactive
 

Offline Gatey

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Re: Can You Mix Engine Oils
« Reply #11 on: May 12, 2013, 03:07:29 PM »
And use what?

Oil change was last done at 53,984km, bike just turned 60,000km. Oil change is high up the list hence to interest in oil threads.

My TDM uses Castrol Power1 GPS 4T 10w-40 Part Synthetic Oil.     The one in the gold bottle.
For the simplicity of inventory I was hoping to use the same for both bikes.

Now I need to read what saaz has found.  Interesting point rocketeer


« Last Edit: May 12, 2013, 03:25:48 PM by Gatey »
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Offline STeveo

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Re: Can You Mix Engine Oils
« Reply #12 on: May 12, 2013, 03:37:39 PM »
I don't think the ST engines are that sensitive to oil type. I use Castrol 4T ($30.00 for 4lt at Repco) that I change every time the speedo clocks over a 10,000km mark, eg 120,000, 130,000, etc. Also do filter at same time (why put clean oil through a dirty filter?). Some blokes use Diesel oil, some the cheapest they can find. I think more important to change regulary and keep at right level.   :wink1

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Offline Streak

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Re: Can You Mix Engine Oils
« Reply #13 on: May 12, 2013, 04:07:40 PM »
As you can see Gatey, we all have different habits and likes with servicing, basically from what I have learnt from both ST1100 & ST1300 from reading is service between 5,000 & 10,000 depending on the riding you have been doing, and do the oil filter at the same time.

oils wise, if it is in the range of what suits your bike, and there are plenty of conversation about that, here is the link: http://ozstoc.com/index.php?topic=40.0

For my ST1100 i use Honda GN4 oil 10w-30 and honda oil filter from my local honda dealer, as the cost is not high ($55 for both), and it runs well with my bike.

« Last Edit: May 12, 2013, 04:52:47 PM by Streak »
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Offline saaz

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Re: Can You Mix Engine Oils
« Reply #14 on: May 12, 2013, 04:08:33 PM »
 :thumbsup

I recently used Penrite 10 10ths full synthetic oil, which is their top line one. It is also rated for used in bikes as it has the MA specification.  Around $68 for 5 litres at Supercheap and other places.  They also have a cheaper syntheic that also has the MA rating, around $10 less.  Last oil change I left the oil in for 14K and the gearbox and clutch still felt as good as with new oil, even in hot weather.

That said, I can't say that the various other diesel oils I have used have not also been as good as far as the clutch goes, but I would not have left them in that long above the normal Honda oil change interval (normally I do the every 10K chnage as it is easy to know something needs to be done).  I could have got the oil tested, but costs the same as an oil change.

I don't think the ST engines are that sensitive to oil type. I use Castrol 4T ($30.00 for 4lt at Repco) that I change every time the speedo clocks over a 10,000km mark, eg 120,000, 130,000, etc. Also do filter at same time (why put clean oil through a dirty filter?). Some blokes use Diesel oil, some the cheapest they can find. I think more important to change regulary and keep at right level.   :wink1

 :bl11
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Offline STeveo

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Re: Can You Mix Engine Oils
« Reply #15 on: May 12, 2013, 05:42:06 PM »
I don't know about the truth of provability of this article, but interesting reading.

www.nightrider.com/biketech/oiltest1.htm



 :bl11
 

Offline Biggles

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Re: Can You Mix Engine Oils
« Reply #16 on: May 12, 2013, 09:23:08 PM »
I don't know about the truth of provability of this article, but interesting reading.

www.nightrider.com/biketech/oiltest1.htm



That certainly boosts the view that synthetic is best for retaining viscosity.  It's a shame the figures weren't given for viscosity retention of the various mineral oils.  Their pick of the pack is Mobil 1 which costs up to $90 for 5 litres in Oz.  Just have to envy US oil prices!
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Offline Streak

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Re: Can You Mix Engine Oils
« Reply #17 on: May 13, 2013, 07:02:03 AM »
I don't know about the truth of provability of this article, but interesting reading.

www.nightrider.com/biketech/oiltest1.htm

 :bl11


That's a really good read, thanks for posting that Steveo
« Last Edit: May 13, 2013, 08:45:12 AM by Streak »
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Offline saaz

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Re: Can You Mix Engine Oils
« Reply #18 on: May 13, 2013, 11:00:08 AM »
I noticed down at the local Honda dealer that they now sell service kits, which include the oil and filter.  The price seemed ok, considering that the Honda oil filters by themselves are not cheap.
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Offline youngSTer

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Re: Can You Mix Engine Oils
« Reply #19 on: May 13, 2013, 11:38:41 AM »
Hi Diesel,
I used Shell Helix in a Petrol engine some years age and it emptied the sump in 500k's.

So just keep a eye on your oil levels.
Great informative post thanks Alan.

I happen to know that if you mix a tank of diesel and ULP petrol in the one engine, you're in a world of hurt!          :fp

I have returned to using... (don't laugh).... Shell Helix Diesel Oil and Ryco Z436 oil filter nowadays as no significant performance/economy boost from their expensive cousins was noticed.


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Offline Gatey

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Re: Can You Mix Engine Oils
« Reply #20 on: June 01, 2013, 12:36:14 PM »
Going with Motul 7100 20W50  4T  100% synthetic.& ester.   Filter is a HIFLO HF204
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Offline alans1100

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Re: Can You Mix Engine Oils
« Reply #21 on: June 01, 2013, 01:51:55 PM »
My SH  03 ST1300  has a sticker on the back...."Neo Synthetic Oil". A sticker I guess came with a can of the stuff.

Anyone know about this oil? The history that came with this bike holds no clue's  and the previous owner is riding the cloud's these days.


I decided to see if I can find it

http://www.neosyntheticoil.com/category/products/engine-oil
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Offline Old Steve

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Re: Can You Mix Engine Oils
« Reply #22 on: August 01, 2013, 11:50:04 AM »
Basically the difference between synthetics and mineal oils are Viscosity Index (VI) and oxidation stability.

A synthetic oil (Group IV and V) will naturally be very oxidation resistant.  It will also have a high VI, that means its viscosity changes LESS for a given temperature change.

A mineral oil based multigrade engine oil with a similar viscosity as the synthetic will have to have an additive in it called a Viscosity Index Improver (VII).  This is like a small ball of spaghetti at low temperatures and allows the oil  to flow passed it easily - the oil appears thin.  At high temperatures the ball expands and inhibits the oil flowing through it, so the oil appears thick - appears thicker than what the same oil would appear without the VII, at a higher temperature an oil will always be thinner than it will be at a lower temperature.  But a mineral oil with a VII in it will change viscosity less over a temperature range than a mineral oil without a VII in it.

The VII additive can, and will, get sheared down into smaller additive particles in service, these smaller particles are less effective at reducing viscosity change so the oil will become thinner at operating temperature.  For example a mineral oil based, VII including, multigrade SAE 15W-50 will break down and become something like an SAE 10W-40 or 10W-30 and not provide the hydrodynamic fluid film which separates and protects surfaces from wear.  To prevent this in-service shear down of the VII oil manufacturers can use a VII made of smaller particles to start with, but this additive is more expensive and you have to use more of it to get the same viscosity benefit so it's only used in premium products.

Minerals and synthetics are compatible, they are mixed to make "semi-synthetics" (though some manufacturers will use highly hydrotreated mineral Group III mineral oils to make a semi-synthetic).  Synthetics can have a slightly different affect on seal materials so that a high mileage bike changing from mineral to synthetic engine oil can start to leak.  Also a synthetic engine oil will probably be a flagship product and have a very effective detergent/dispersant additive system in it, this can clean out deposits that have built up in an engine and cause oil consumption.  There are fully synthetic motorcycle engine oils on the market, but my feeling is that highway riding doesn't need this level of engine oil sophistication.  I always use a semi-synthetic or a mineral oil based engine oil from a brand that I trust.  And I change it out early.

Just as an aside.  Castrol Magnatec probably has some "ester" synthetic in its composition.  An ester is a 'polar' molecule, that means its got an electric charge on one end of it, and that electric charge will attract the molecule to the metal surface of the engine - that's all those little talking oil droplets in the Castrolo TV ad.  Putting an ester in an engine oil won't necessarily make a dramatically better engine oil, that's dependent more on the additive package used.  So I don't think that Magnatec is quite the brilliantly superior engine oil it's made out to be, but I do think that Castrol's advertising people are pretty sharp!  And if the ester base oil actually does prevent wear on start up, great.
« Last Edit: August 01, 2013, 12:04:03 PM by Old Steve »
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Offline STeveo

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Re: Can You Mix Engine Oils
« Reply #23 on: August 01, 2013, 01:04:10 PM »
Thanks for your info. My dad always said that 'oil is cheaper than engines'.

 :bl11