Author Topic: Rough Idle  (Read 24743 times)

Offline kappy5003

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Rough Idle
« on: August 11, 2014, 03:31:24 PM »
Hi Guys
Some time ago I did all the shims both sides and its been put back for some time.

So the other day I reconnected radiator, with nice new red coolant.

Then yesterday after sorting out some battery issues finally fire up AnaSTasia. It took a while for her to start but when I did I could tell all was not smooth and there was heaps off black smooth as I revved her, probably flooded her. I also noticed more tappety than before I did the shims. :H

When Idling and when revved slightly I could tell it was not quite smooth, like timing not right, so too hard leave for another day.

So the morning when and fired up 1 st time tappet noise almiost gone but still not smooth.

Anyone have any experience with this, could i be a tooth out on the cams and still fire.

May have to pull it all apart again.

Cheers
Kappy
Cheers
Kappy
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Offline Bikebear

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Re: Rough Idle
« Reply #1 on: August 12, 2014, 09:47:05 AM »
Check for vacuum leaks. I had a problem with my 1100 running rough at idle and found that one of the caps on the vacuum lines used for carby balancing was cracked and sucking air. You might also need to do a carby balance, if the carbs are out of balance the idle won't be as smooth as it should be.
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Offline saaz

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Re: Rough Idle
« Reply #2 on: August 12, 2014, 10:20:00 AM »
Good advice from Bikebear. The vacuum caps are easy to miss, and the vacuum hose can come off the nipple where it attaches to the intake. A carby balance is supposed to be done after checking the valves, as any shim changes may affect the balance.

But it is also easy to get the cams a tooth out, but if all the marks line up it should be ok. The bike will still run as long as it is not way out, in which case valves will bend.  Easy enough to take the cam covers off and check for peace of mind.
John
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Offline kappy5003

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Re: Rough Idle
« Reply #3 on: August 12, 2014, 11:37:34 AM »
Tks guys I will have to recheck that everything is lined up right.

Its not just idle as the revs are increased still not quite right, sorta feels as if timing is not quite right.

Could it be out say one tooth, and still run without causing damage?

probably will check vacuum lines as well.

Cheers
Kappy
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Offline Biggles

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Re: Rough Idle
« Reply #4 on: August 12, 2014, 11:40:24 AM »
Could it be out say one tooth, and still run without causing damage?

As saaz says:
"But it is also easy to get the cams a tooth out, but if all the marks line up it should be ok. The bike will still run as long as it is not way out, in which case valves will bend."

The valve timing will be wrong, hence loss of power and rough running with one tooth error.  Any more will lead to a valve being down when a piston comes up and then a bent valve stem and who-knows-what-else will occur.
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Offline kappy5003

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Re: Rough Idle
« Reply #5 on: August 12, 2014, 11:52:10 AM »
I guess if its too far out causing bent valve one would know about it pretty quickly.

A bent valve would be pretty noisy even if it still ran.
Cheers
Kappy
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Offline Biggles

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Re: Rough Idle
« Reply #6 on: August 12, 2014, 11:58:29 AM »
If it's only one tooth out and hence the valve timing is wrong, you'll still end up with burnt valve seats and/or loss of power.
For the modern man who lives in the city, riding a bike might be one of the only ways to escape the humdrum monotony. To take off and ride. To be both at one with nature and one with the bike. To feel masculine. Adam Piggott

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Offline alans1100

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Re: Rough Idle
« Reply #7 on: August 12, 2014, 03:09:57 PM »
When I replaced my timing belt and got to the point of starting I had a few minor issues as well.

http://ozstoc.com/index.php?topic=2977.msg38388#msg38388

I think that covers it.

Saaz will confirm this (I hope) that the 1100 is prone to some knocking noise coming from appears to be the clutch area. When I first head the sound I thought it may have been a tappet or a big end going but the noise went away once under way. The oil pump is chain driven from the clutch drive shaft so it was possibly the source of the noise.

Surprisingly once I balanced the carbs as best as I could that sound went away. A not so tight clamp on one of the carbs caused a little air in one cylinder causing an erratic misfire and I also thought one tooth was out (LH bank) but it all came down to carb balance in the end.
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Offline Abe

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Re: Rough Idle
« Reply #8 on: August 12, 2014, 07:19:56 PM »
Carby balance  :thumb
At my age " getting lucky" is remembering what I came in the room for ;)

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Offline saaz

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Re: Rough Idle
« Reply #9 on: August 12, 2014, 09:01:44 PM »
Yes, the 1100 can be prone to a knocking noise from around the clutch, as well as from one or more of the drive gears that are on the end of each camshaft - on mine the left hand gear is slightly loose (it is held in position by a key but cannot be tightened any more). Only a bit more noise at idle, does not seem to affect performance or life (my 96 has 215,000kms on it, still goes well). A carb balance may smooth things, but sometimes noises are still there at idle.

When I replaced my timing belt and got to the point of starting I had a few minor issues as well.

http://ozstoc.com/index.php?topic=2977.msg38388#msg38388

I think that covers it.

Saaz will confirm this (I hope) that the 1100 is prone to some knocking noise coming from appears to be the clutch area. When I first head the sound I thought it may have been a tappet or a big end going but the noise went away once under way. The oil pump is chain driven from the clutch drive shaft so it was possibly the source of the noise.

Surprisingly once I balanced the carbs as best as I could that sound went away. A not so tight clamp on one of the carbs caused a little air in one cylinder causing an erratic misfire and I also thought one tooth was out (LH bank) but it all came down to carb balance in the end.
John
(Ridden on and forever in our hearts)
1996 Honda ST1100P
2014 Triumph Trophy SE
Ozstoc, STOC #7239, Farrider #461 Ulysses #061681, IBA #59143 and some others
 

Offline Yorkie

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Re: Rough Idle
« Reply #10 on: August 12, 2014, 09:02:38 PM »
If you get to York I can balance your carbies, I believe Wombat found his timing was 1 tooth out when he changed his timing belt, had no idea prior other than poor fuel economy.
Brian 0418937173
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Offline kappy5003

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Re: Rough Idle
« Reply #11 on: August 12, 2014, 09:24:01 PM »
Thanks Yorkie,
Hopefully I get a chance to double check everything on the weekend.

Pretty sure it must be timing, as the bike vibrates as it idles, I wouldn't think carbies out would cause that, maybe I'm wrong.

Beside it was sorta OK beforehand.

Will see when I check it all.

Once I get it back together I take you up on balance and pick up bits as well.

Cheers
Kappy

Cheers
Cheers
Kappy
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Offline kappy5003

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Re: Rough Idle
« Reply #12 on: August 17, 2014, 07:01:40 PM »
Hi Guys

Did some exploration today.

Double checked clearances and and timing marks all good.

So if T1 and T4 marks line up with appropriate marks then timing must be OK ,cant imagine being a tooth out if marks all line up.
 http://www.my427sc.com/_MISC/_ST/ST1100%20Valve%20Clearance%20Worksheet.pdf

I did notice both front plugs were a bit dirty more carbon than the back two, but all a little black. I'm running iridium plugs.

Can carby imbalance impact to a large degree.

Cheers
Kappy
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Offline kappy5003

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Re: Rough Idle
« Reply #13 on: September 24, 2014, 09:25:21 AM »
Hi just an update how things stand atm.

Thought Id do a recap.

About 14 months ago while working in the city I took her off the road as she wasn't quite running as smooth as she used to.

I decided to do forks ,shims, radiator hoses, some leaks plus tyres and do all fluids.

Anyway around November last I experienced a tragic family event that gutted me, so everything went on hold, then a few months ago I put her on a trailer and brought her home as therapy.

Its been a long slow road.

After sorting out some battery issues I finally fired up AnaSTasia. It took a while for her to start but when I did I could tell all was not smooth and there was heaps off black smooth as I revved her, probably flooded her. I also noticed more tappety than before I did the shims.

When Idling and when revved slightly I could tell it was not quite smooth, like timing not right, so too hard leave for another day.

So the next day when and fired up 1 st time tappet noise almost gone but still not smooth.

I checked the spark plugs ( Iridium that I have had for about 20,000kms) they were all quite black

Since then I have started her a few times seems as if getting a little better. New fuel--carby cleaner.

Any way a couple of days ago I got to operating temp and noticed running better when warm, so did carby sync some minor adjustment not really a lot, less than I would have thought.

The following day I fired her up again, Wont fire without choke when cold and it not that cold really, anyway got temp up not as warm as the day before and checked carbs and discovered quite a bit of discrepancy. Thinks out loud, I look at that later.

A few days ago I started her with a little choke and notice a little backfire though carbs, even with choke off still a little backfire. Increase revs a little and can here a little popping, all with air cleaner cover off.

I also smell what I call a pepper type smell from around the intake area, I related this smell to a sort of coolant smell , takes me back to an old car I had with coolant leak car heater system.

Yesterday I decided to obtain some standard plugs and on removing Iridium plugs noticed they are still black and quite damp.

After installing new plugs when starting I observed popping through intake but also noticed when revving slightly popping from all intakes plus felt as though more sluggish than before but slightly smother ,does that make any sense???

So before I start ripping everything apart unnecessarily can I ask a few opinions factual would be a nice, I feel may be necessary to pull carbies out etc.

I know plugs should probably be greyish and not damp.

Cheers
Kappy
Cheers
Kappy
Growing old is inevitable, growing up is optional.
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Offline Abe

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Re: Rough Idle
« Reply #14 on: September 24, 2014, 09:36:13 AM »
Kappy,

Sounds like she is running rich, so:-

I would check that the choke in the "off" position on the handle bars, is actually "off" on the carbie's.

Carbie balance sounds the go.  But, check the choke first.

After I carbie balance my 1100, I found I did not need the choke.
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Offline kappy5003

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Re: Rough Idle
« Reply #15 on: September 24, 2014, 09:49:47 AM »
Tks,

Ive found i now cant start when cold without full choke, like a year of so ago I could start cold without choke and a slight twist of throttle.

What else could make her run rich which is whats happening?

Cheers
Kappy
Cheers
Kappy
Growing old is inevitable, growing up is optional.
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Offline Assassin

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Re: Rough Idle
« Reply #16 on: September 24, 2014, 11:21:41 AM »
Hi Guys
Some time ago I did all the shims both sides and its been put back for some time.

So the other day I reconnected radiator, with nice new red coolant.

Then yesterday after sorting out some battery issues finally fire up AnaSTasia. It took a while for her to start but when I did I could tell all was not smooth and there was heaps off black smooth as I revved her, probably flooded her. I also noticed more tappety than before I did the shims. :H

When Idling and when revved slightly I could tell it was not quite smooth, like timing not right, so too hard leave for another day.

So the morning when and fired up 1 st time tappet noise almiost gone but still not smooth.

Anyone have any experience with this, could i be a tooth out on the cams and still fire.

May have to pull it all apart again.

Cheers
Kappy

When you see clouds of black smoke, it's a tell-tale sign that one of your cylinders isn't firing... From cold, start the bike only for 10 or 20 seconds, then feel the pipes... You will notice that one (or two) pipes are cold.... This will give you an idea which cylinder to look at first... Are you very confident your valve clearances are right ?


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Offline Assassin

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Re: Rough Idle
« Reply #17 on: September 24, 2014, 11:27:03 AM »
Tks,

Ive found i now cant start when cold without full choke, like a year of so ago I could start cold without choke and a slight twist of throttle.

What else could make her run rich which is whats happening?

Cheers
Kappy

If your bike was running well prior to valve clearances being done, and you haven't touch the balancing at all, then it will have nothing to to with carbs... but make sure all the vacuum pipes are on etc, but doing what I said in my previous message, will tell you where to start... Could be a wire to the ignition coil perhaps...


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Offline kappy5003

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Re: Rough Idle
« Reply #18 on: September 24, 2014, 12:46:33 PM »
Almost just now.
Choke cable and operation, checked and OK.
Ran for short all pipes hot.
Pulled No 3 plug quite wet at base of thread.
Pulled No 2 & 4 both black on bottom electrode ,No 4 more so, all plugs are new,minutes old.
Side note prior to taking off the road the engine didn't feel as sweet and smooth as she did say 5000km before, hence the reason for doing shims.
She has sat and not been started for approx 14 month hence carby concern.
Shim settings double checked and ok.
On just starting convinced I have a coolant leak that I can smell but can't see, ----more exploration
Cheers
Kappy
Growing old is inevitable, growing up is optional.
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Offline kappy5003

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Re: Rough Idle
« Reply #19 on: September 24, 2014, 01:14:27 PM »
I did notice the secondary air breather filter had degraded so I wonder whether any of that had been sucked in, wouldn't help I guess.
Cheers
Kappy
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ST 1100 P AnaSTasia
 

Offline saaz

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Re: Rough Idle
« Reply #20 on: September 24, 2014, 05:36:08 PM »
Hard to diagnose from here. Are all the carb clamps done up? There may be a blockage in one or more of the idle jets From petrol drying out and leaving gum deposits), or perhaps some of that foam filter has gone somewhere it should not. One cylinder being a bit off means they are not balanced.  One thing I have come across is that a plug lead might seem to be properly connected to the plug cap, but it may have an intermittent firing problem. In one case I slightly shortened the lead and screwed the cap back in, which solved the problem. But that one was more obvious as one cylinder was cold to the touch on starting.  Other things may be the carb diaphragms (a split, not seated properly etc).

Frustrating problems to deal with alright...
John
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1996 Honda ST1100P
2014 Triumph Trophy SE
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Offline Panman50

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Re: Rough Idle
« Reply #21 on: September 24, 2014, 07:13:39 PM »
Hey Kappy, you are using fresh fuel as well yeah???
Stale fuel wouldn't be helping your cause.
Tom.
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Offline kappy5003

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Re: Rough Idle
« Reply #22 on: September 24, 2014, 07:15:44 PM »
Yes fresh fuel, plugs etc.

Seems pulling the carbs is the way to go.
Cheers
Kappy
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ST 1100 P AnaSTasia
 

Offline Yorkie

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Re: Rough Idle
« Reply #23 on: September 24, 2014, 09:14:35 PM »
I have a spare engine with carbs if you need anything, however I am going in for spinal surgery on 2nd Oct so you will need to be quick.
Brian 0418937173
Manager York Motor Museum

In the shed
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1971 CB750K2
1980 XV750
1977 GL1000
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York,WA

So at what age does this "old enough to know better" kick in?
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Offline kappy5003

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Re: Rough Idle
« Reply #24 on: September 24, 2014, 10:39:20 PM »
Thanks Yorkie,
I'll keep that in mind.

Unless you know the condition of the set of carbs, I feel I need to pull them out and see what give.

After all they were working prior to me pulling thing to pieces, even though I felt she wasn't that smooth and then she sat for around 14 months, so probably dirty or clogged or something.

I really don't suspect anything with the engine, even this arvo I started her and I can hear the miss in the exhaust and pooping at intake. 

Cheers
Kappy
Cheers
Kappy
Growing old is inevitable, growing up is optional.
STOC #6677
ST 1100 P AnaSTasia