OzSTOC
General Category => General Discussion => Topic started by: Abe on February 27, 2013, 07:49:59 PM
-
Just received the rear rubbers and damper wheels, to replace the old 95k?? ones on my 1994 ST1100. (bits that help the rear tyre spin)
Well, a very interesting journey to say the least. I have photo's to post later, but boy oh boy, all I can say, are you or the servicing centres using the right/correct Moly paste, not grease on the final drive splines.
I'm doing this as the wear indicators "inside" the rear tyre were outside the manufacturers limits. If you are not mechanically minded PLEASE do your research prior to anyone touching your bike.
There is a wealth of information out there (as Biggles would say "Google is your friend")
Please this is not to worry you but to keep you informed.
As I do want to make it to Middleton and catch up to "Stinky Pete".
Cheers
Dave
-
I have seen some dry and rusty splines that did not seem to see any grease, let alone the right moly grease. Replacing the 3 o rings also helps (yes there are 3!)
Just received the rear rubbers and damper wheels, to replace the old 95k?? ones on my 1994 ST1100. (bits that help the rear tyre spin)
Well, a very interesting journey to say the least. I have photo's to post later, but boy oh boy, all I can say, are you or the servicing centres using the right/correct Moly paste, not grease on the final drive splines.
I'm doing this as the wear indicators "inside" the rear tyre were outside the manufacturers limits. If you are not mechanically minded PLEASE do your research prior to anyone touching your bike.
There is a wealth of information out there (as Biggles would say "Google is your friend")
Please this is not to worry you but to keep you informed.
As I do want to make it to Middleton and catch up to "Stinky Pete".
Cheers
Dave
-
I have seen some dry and rusty splines that did not seem to see any grease, let alone the right moly grease.
One of the reasons I now remove the rear wheel myself now.
First time I pulled the wheel off I found splines dry from previous dealer fitted tyre change.
-
Evening Abe et al...
Just received the rear rubbers and damper wheels, to replace the old 95k?? ones on my 1994 ST1100. (bits that help the rear tyre spin)
I think the components you refer to are the dampers that absord the drive train loads.
A thought worth considering is often owners barter heavily with retailers to get the cheapest deal possible for new tyres, then expect them to fit the same tyres at no additional cost. It wont happen. So it is not surprising the see absolute carnage when a lot of ST1100 wheels are removed. I know, because in the 15+ years l have been maintaining the one or more of them l have seen some doosies.
The worst by far was on the second bike l got second hand and though it was just on 3 years old, it had 150+ clicks on it and when l removed the wheel the ONLY material that was within was a large quantity or rust and pieces of ferrous and non-ferrous metal. Not a gram of anything that resembled 'anti-squeak'. The spines on the final drive coupling were 70% worn out. That was 22k ago.
I maintain this bike the same as l do with the one l have owned since new. That is every 15 to 18k (the average life of a rear tyre), l dismantle, thoroughly clean and dry all the components within the hub and lubricate with a bog standard grease like 'Moreys' and thin smear of silicon on the dampers and reassemble. The original bike has 166k and the coupling wear is about 5% and the seating land on the wheel itself about the same.
All up this procedure takes me about a hour. Or to put it another way, about $85 ontop of the average $30 a repairer will charge to fit and balance the (about), $250 tyre. All up $370 for ONE wheel and tyre.
Now, who of us would be content in routinely parting with these ammount each time for a rear tyre fit? I think the costs l have quoted are fair for quality workmanship. In other words, yas get what yas pay for. Hence there are some truly awefully crappy ST1100 final drives out there.
Just a thought.
Cheers, the can :-)
Sent from my iphone using my thumb
-
Tyres for Bikes in Vic Park made sure to let me know that they jad used the correct Moly paste when they replaced my tyre
-
Ah the joy of no grease.......second hand rear wheel/drive hub/ new cush rubbers bolts for plate and a new spider all in all £400 but she's good now. :crackup
You can see the wear on the inside of the wheel
(https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-aXnUYzxpzrA/US4ssEa6GoI/AAAAAAAAAnU/3Q9mFcJOE2k/s800/00.jpg)
Spider completely shot
(https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-Yk5Uqibco5c/US4s5ndwWCI/AAAAAAAAAnc/2iK-wET9GsE/s800/018.jpg)
(https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-BMs3qdy9pzw/US4s50kejGI/AAAAAAAAAng/7RlnFa2LKTM/s800/Sta50002.jpg)
(https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-fkrWNDNN5Yg/US4s6j09HzI/AAAAAAAAAnw/JSy-sZbcNrA/s800/Sta50003.jpg)
Due to wheel wobble the bolt heads are worn
(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-mDFqraXI9Ys/US4s6wLZjKI/AAAAAAAAAn0/N5RTcHj5Zfg/s800/Sta50004.jpg)
And the hub is toast
(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-AHHh1MGnkLk/US4s7CbkOtI/AAAAAAAAAn8/bgUH1R-N_n0/s800/Sta50005.jpg)
I bought her knowing there was a problem on the rear end and haggled the price down i should have haggled more. :grin
-
I always pull the wheels myself and deliver them to the shop when I get new tyres. Firstly because I don't wanna pay the extra cost for them to pull them out and replace them (OK.. I'm a tight arse :p), and secondly I like to have a good look at the drive and hub just for my peace of mind.
I bought a tube of Honda Moly Paste a few years ago off ebay and although it's only small it will last a long time since you only need a small amount for the splines. I checked the cush rubbers last time the wheel was out and they looked ok, just gave it all a bit of a cleanup and everything is fine. Mind you my bike only has 63000km on it so I would expect that they should be in fairly good condition.... it is a Honda after all.
-
That makes me cry no a drop of moly grease oh the pain :spank
-
Some photo's as promised. The spline did have axle grease on it, not the Moly paste.
Your right Bikebear, the Honda moly paste is $57.85 for 85grams (confirm $ when it arrives)
Replacing all three "O" rings, two as shown on photo's and one inside and around the final drive.
1994 - 1100 - 96,000kms
(http://i1359.photobucket.com/albums/q791/vegapup/1994%20ST1100%20rear%20drive%20train/32957e20-9cbe-4346-9971-e556cb110d35_zpsfef2fb5d.jpg)
The wear into the rim is approx 1mm.
(http://i1359.photobucket.com/albums/q791/vegapup/1994%20ST1100%20rear%20drive%20train/rearend010_zps6bb77242.jpg)
(http://i1359.photobucket.com/albums/q791/vegapup/1994%20ST1100%20rear%20drive%20train/4c82bf8e-f090-4246-8b10-424cd35f0038_zps6ece774d.jpg)
(http://i1359.photobucket.com/albums/q791/vegapup/1994%20ST1100%20rear%20drive%20train/rearend003_zps52428f48.jpg)
The dampeners "looked" fine sitting under the slide collar, but, as you can see above the damage is underneath the dampeners.
It's not that hard to check , 5 screws out, rotate slide collar off, inspect, clean and reassemble (Loctite and 20Nm torque) job done - for a piece of mind.
I'm going to do a final drive realignment as well.
Cheers
Dave
-
What's involved in re alignment ?
-
Hi Turtle,
Carby's done?? any better??
Remove rear tyre (inspect etc)
Loosen the 4 nuts that hold the final drive to the swingarm (located under the rear suspension)
Install rear tyre to specs. Then tighten the 3 nuts you can get to, to spec 65Nm. Remove tyre again and tighten the 4th nut to spec.
Unless you can reach the 4th nut with a universal/swivel socket adapter, whilst tyre is still fitted. Another way some say is to remove the fuel tank (clean/inspect etc) so you can reach all the nuts.
After some reading, some people are for this realignment and some ain't.
I did the front tyre and realignment of forks etc, when I replaced the fork oil and made my handle bar risers (pictures have been posted).
The handle bars were not square with the front tyre, they were 10mm further away on the accelerator side, but now fixed.
There is some youtube topics on it.
Cheers
Dave
-
Mornin' All...
Ah the joy of no grease.......second hand rear wheel/drive hub/ new cush rubbers bolts for plate and a new spider all in all £400 but she's good now. :crackup
Ahh! a familar site, though now a distant memory :grin
I'm going to do a final drive realignment as well.
Wise Sir...infact very commendable as it is a task seldom thought of :thumbs
What's involved in re alignment ?
When, after all the cleaning, replacing parts, re-lubricating don't just put the rear wheel back in and ride away.
1) Instead loosen the four (4) nuts / bolts that attach the final drive assemble to the swingarm. (I take the nuts off and put a small drop of 'locktite' 243 BLUE and then tighten finger tight.)
2) Returtn the rear wheel, spacer, brake caliper and push the axle through and then tighen the axle as specified.
3) Begin to re-tighen (torque), the final drive attachment bolts. You'll only get two of them successfully with the wheel in, three at best with the proper tools. (these are enough to hold the final drive alligned to the wheel)
4) Unfasten the rear wheel axle nut and remove the axle, caliper, spacer and wheel to enable a 'cleaner' go at re-tightening the remaining final drive attachement nut and bolt.
5) If you haven't a tension wrench to tighten these attachment fasteners then use a ring spanner to secure the bolt from rotating and a ring/ open-end combination spanner to rotate and tighen the nut unto the spring washer. Using this method and tools will prevent the bolts from being over tensioned.
6) Return the wheel as in step 2...too easy.
I do this about every 50 to 60K when I replace the dampers as by then they have usulally reached their use by date. I also 'flip' over the alloy lug guides.
Abe's pics though show these components have chaffed against the wheel, their I.D.'s are quite spherical as usually on the mating side with the splined coupling they become elongated and as long as they have not chaffed, this practice doesn't seem to prove detremental.
Just a thought.
Ciao, the can :-)
-
Oops...sorry Abe, I didn't see your reply :law
-
Nothing to be sorry about, and thanks for your input Greencan, I was a bit slow in typing.
Cheers
Dave
-
This is what I made to help with removing and holding the rear axle and I also use it to remove/fit the fork caps. I have several of these over the years of various sizes and lengths, very handy.
(http://i1359.photobucket.com/albums/q791/vegapup/17mmhex002_zps8b8d47ff.jpg)
22mm top and 17mm bottom (nut welded to bolt)
(http://i1359.photobucket.com/albums/q791/vegapup/17mmhex001_zps2dbba21a.jpg)
Cheers
Dave
-
Also with the new cush drive rubbers how they say outside should they face the left hand side ie brake rotor or right no rotor ? Me no manual must get one me thinks
-
Also with the new cush drive rubbers how they say outside should they face the left hand side ie brake rotor or right no rotor ? Me no manual must get one me thinks
"Out side" means the word is visible when installed
-
Hi Turtle,
Place the tyre with the disc facing down, preferably on 3 piece's of timber so the disc doesn't touch the ground (or you may warp the disc).
On the rubber dampeners it will say "outside" this side should face you when you insert them into the wheel pocket.
Once I assembled the rubber and aluminum insert together (no lubricate) I gave them all a LIGHT spray of silicone spray (read this elsewhere) and then into the wheel pocket they went.
You will need to push the dampeners down (push down on the rubber NOT the aluminum insert) or the slide collar (note arrow on rim and slide collar) will not engage.
Then a little loctite on the 5 slide collar bolts and torque to 20Nm (I did 18Nm as I used medium Loctite)
I hope this helps.
If you like I can undo and take photo's of the process if you like, no problems, as we can then place it in the new forums "how to do list" if I'm right.
Cheers
Dave
-
Thanks guys on the info I did put the new cush drive rubbers in the right way last week I was thinking I was going to have to remove it all again :fp but thank god it's right
Ps Dave carb sync did wonders to my bike it was out and now a difference in idle and running :thumb
Ben
-
Once I assembled the rubber and aluminum insert together (no lubricate) I gave them all a LIGHT spray of silicone spray (read this elsewhere) and then into the wheel pocket they went.
Thats interesting i was told to use the moly paste on the rubbers and ally inserts?
-
Hi Keith3ro,
Going by what I have read elsewhere (and your own question on another forum dated 08-24-2011, 06:33 AM regarding Moly 60) and Honda literature it all states NO lubricates on the dampeners, inserts and drive flange (spider to some), excluding the spline (Moly 60), though I did use silicone spray (lightly) on the dampeners to assist in their insertion into the wheel pocket. No (lube free) lube should be placed on the drive flange fingers (fingers = my word), the thought is that no lube so that no worn rubber/aluminum adhering to internal components that may increase wear. Though Keith3ro I have read that some people have lubed ALL components of the final drive, BUT, do inspect more frequent to assess wear/clean/re lube. This may be a good thing I think in the long run.
Cheers
Dave
-
Cheers Abe which forum was that post on i'd like to re-read it?
-
Evenin' All...
Ditto Dave...I have tended to by a little generous with the grease a bit but try and keep it away from the dampers themselves.
Kieth what did you do about the 'chattered' land on the wheel on which the flange / coupling rests? Mine is so worn the groove for the 'O' ring is non-existant. I spent hours hand fettling it back into shape (this bike lives with my Sister in law so l have limited tools with it), but did manage to get it to receive a spring steel shim I made that fits snuggly within the flange. I 'matched' it with all the damper components removed. It does tend to 'throw' some grease around the rim for the first 1k but thereafter doesn't spit too much more out. And at 17k when its time for new tyres the flange remains remakably well 'lubed'.
If, one day if I ever get this bike in my shed I will machine the wheel and turn up a new 'flange-land' and include a groove to take a non proprietry 'O' ring. In the mean time the repairs made 22k ago work fine.
Ciao, Dick :-)
-
Hi Kieth3po,
It was St-owners forum, there was some very good questions. Your question and others made me really think about the final drive train more.
Thanks for your input on various forums, as it the knowledge and questions asked by you and others is what assists us (Ozstoc) more informed.
Cheers
Dave
-
Thanks Dave when i don't know i ask. 8)
Dick my wheel was toast and still sits in the garage (must get rid of it) heres a picture with a brand new bearing in you can see the wear all around and how prominent the bearing is. :o
(https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-Xm6WZvvmk1U/US9EmFhUbEI/AAAAAAAAAo0/Us5FZYfGbVk/s800/002.jpg)
Got a second hand wheel you can see the difference.
(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-l4yCNwKfIMk/US9En-gIliI/AAAAAAAAAo0/uQpkBVIaqd0/s800/STA50002%2520%25282%2529.JPG)
-
There was a discussion on this on the old my-mc some time ago. Some went further and put a little molly on the fingers as they went into the alloy inserts, but not on the alloy inserts as they went into the rubber dampers. The logic was that greasing up the rubbers might promote movement and wear, rather than the rubber sticking in place.
I recently replaced some dampers etc in a 180,000kms ST11 that had worn the alloy inserts oval in a bad way and has started to wear into the wheel. They can take abuse but it was reaching the limits.
-
Morning All...
Ahh, the joys of a proper computer and keyboard and not just my thumb on an iphone...now I can get into x10 more trouble :wink1
Keith, my wheel hasn't any wear on the end, so that bearing is not 'exposed'...but here's a thought before you commit your toasted wheel to the recyclers.
OK, from memory I think that exposed bearing is a 'triple' bearing...So (if I had this wheel):
Option 1) Is what I already have in mind for my bike if I ever get home into my shed
Would be to remove the this bearing (and all the other 'bits'), and the wheel could be turned (in an lathe), so that (a) the badly damaged end is cleaned up to return a flat surface, then (b) turn the the mating surface that the flange rests on down to approx 1/2 the thickness it is now and back to just below the lip that has the 5 threaded holes that receive the attachment screws for the damper retaining plate. A tolerence fit sleeve (with an 'L' profile), then could be turned up (with a grove to receive an 'O' ring), and fitted to the now dressed wheel. I would then drill 4 x 5-6mm holes through the sleeve and down into the now flat surface along side the bearing and fix 4 unbrako srews into the sleeve / wheel and countersunk 1-2mm and fill the countersunk with some aluminium putty / Devcon and hand fettle any excess off.
This could easily be done in a 3' split bed Miford lathe.
Option 2) a little more radical
Would be to machine the wheel back in much the same way as describes above, but so that now only that a 'double' bearing could only be accommodated within the wheel. I then with 'fit' a 'single' bearing within the drive flange so that now that 1 kilo drive flange is now support on the axle and not the wheel hub...something Honda ought to have done in the first place!
Now the only hand-brake to this idea I can see at this stage is the amount of metal there is to work with that could accommodate this combination of 1 x 'double' and 1 x 'single' bearing as the combine widths of these 2 bearings is greater than a single OEM 'triple' bearing. I know this as I bought a wrong bearing somne years ago and it's still sitting in my shed.
As I said before I have toying with these possibilities in my head for a while now, the latter is I concede a bit fanciful as the ST unsprung rear wheel weight is stupidly heavy and more thought here, me thinks :think1
Just a thought,
Ciao, the can :-)
-
OR you could get the wheel off that wreck in Sydney for a song. :p
-
This could easily be done in a 3' split bed Miford lathe.
:eek :eek :eek
Now all I got to do is get one of them, put it on the slab that isnt there and build a shed around it. I would love to own my own machine shop...
-
Someone has already rebuilt the worn part of the wheel by machining up a spacer. I may have saved the thread somewhere, so will look when I get home. Having a decent lathe, and some ability to use it, would be handy.
-
:eek :eek :eek If i had a lathe etc etc etc :rofl i still wouldn't know what to do with it.
-
Have you ever thought of rotating the 5 fingers (fingers = my word) 180 degrees on the final drive, as I have noticed that the "case hardening" has been worn away whilst rubbing on the aluminum inserts. A new final drive is approx $135 + p&h
-
Evenin' All... home again...and NO BLOODY RAIN :runyay
Someone has already rebuilt the worn part of the wheel by machining up a spacer. I may have saved the thread somewhere, so will look when I get home. Having a decent lathe, and some ability to use it, would be handy.
Bugger :'(
Have you ever thought of rotating the 5 fingers (fingers = my word) 180 degrees on the final drive, as I have noticed that the "case hardening" has been worn away whilst rubbing on the aluminum inserts. A new final drive is approx $135 + p&h
No...but I have turned over the alloy inserts and got another shot out of em :wink1
Finally... Yeah I know this is the wrong thread, but I can't be bothered lookin' for the right one... :cop
...To the large bloke with the pillion who passed us on the motorway heading north last FRIDAY, yes in the sodding rain :-[ around the Mudgeerabah turn off at about 14:30-15:00 riding a black ST1100 with a black top box with the lid painted red...my Wife made the following two observations see wishes me to pass on...
1) "Ya Pillion didn't look happy"... Yeeees she was wearing a full face helmet, but I have learnt not to argue!
2) "the TPS in large white letters on her back, should have read TWU!" ...When I pushed her why, she replied "This Way Up!"
...you may not have seen us as somehow our lovely blue ST1100 looked remarkable like a white Honda Civic...strange that!
Ciao, the can :-)