Author Topic: Oils for good clutch operation  (Read 9225 times)

Offline John g

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Oils for good clutch operation
« on: April 18, 2016, 11:25:34 PM »
 Here's a question the brains trust out there may be able to answer.Being new to the st1100 ,having owned this one for only 3 months I decided to change the oil at 60,000 ks.The previous owner used Motul fully synthetic .I replaced the oil and oil filter. I used shell ax7 Semi synthetic .Over a short period of time the gears seem to be a bit notchy especially when changing up under high revs.My question is this.Is there an oil out there that is particularly good for clutch operation.I read in the forums that oils with zinc may have some benefit .As a matter of interest I replaced the oil filter with a k&n filter .AFter 1300 ks it decided to leak all over my back tyre while I was away on holidays at Halls gap.A continuation off the Robe st dinner.At the caravan park I removed the filter and found the seal distorted  I carefully reshaped the seal and put it back on and hand tightened as hard as I could .It stopped leaking and got me back to port Elliot Sa .I now have a genuine Honda oil filter ready to fit with whatever oil you good people suggest .The Honda filter looks superior to me especially in the seal department and only cost me a dollar more.I know which one ill be using in the future! looking forward to your replies.   Regards John g

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Offline alans1100

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Re: Oils for good clutch operation
« Reply #1 on: April 19, 2016, 01:05:15 AM »
I think you'll find the clutch will sort itself out. I had a similar issue when I did my first oil change - I had trouble getting into 1st and a little less trouble in the other gears. Being a wet clutch a change in oil type can cause some issues but after a few hundred km and the new oil in clutch it sorted itself out - no issue since. My last few changes have been Castrol 4T and as with some others using Repco z436 oil filter which I have to make sure is tight enough or it weeps a little.

I've used the Advance before but only 'cause I was working for Coles Express at the time.
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Re: Oils for good clutch operation
« Reply #2 on: April 19, 2016, 07:30:37 PM »
I use Penrite HPR 20 W 50 extra 10 (I think, in Thailand so cant check). If you look at the bottle, you should see that it a diesel rated oil (has extra zinc). It is a very good oil for the 1100 and 1300. filter is repco ROF135
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Offline Wombat

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Re: Oils for good clutch operation
« Reply #3 on: April 21, 2016, 10:34:22 AM »
Penrite now have motorcycle specific oils and are shown on their website. There is also an ability to talk to their techs online so any questions you have can be answered straight away. As Brock has said the diesel oil is being used now but always check for use with wet clutches. I had full synthetic in mine and it felt and sounded loose. I went back to the mineral Castrol 4T and had no problems. It does take a little while to get the feel of the boxes in shifting and find that sweet spot
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Offline Nigel

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Re: Oils for good clutch operation
« Reply #4 on: April 21, 2016, 08:15:54 PM »
Hi all I use Penrite HPR 15/50 Diesel Semi Syn with a Rof 135 filter. Full zinc and wet clutch friendly...stops notch y gears...................... :wht11
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Offline Grumpy

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Re: Oils for good clutch operation
« Reply #5 on: April 22, 2016, 09:09:04 AM »
I also use the Penrite  Diesel oil but with a K&N filter (cos they were on sale and have a 17mm nut on the end of them) and the shifts are great, very little clunking. I believe most of the appropriate Penrite oils are wet clutch friendly.
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Offline John g

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Re: Oils for good clutch operation
« Reply #6 on: May 06, 2016, 11:54:30 PM »
Hi to you all.I took your advice and changed the oil to a Penrite diesel full zinc mineral oil .Put the genuine Honda filter on and bleed the clutch.Have you ever tried to clean the sight glass on the master cylinder?Bloody frustrating job but managed to clean it with some pipe cleaners.If anyone has a better idea I would be glad to hear about it I've still got to do the brake one too!Anyway the gear changing has improved substantially ,not perfect but seems to be getting better all the time as Alan's 1100 suggested.It seems to Change better when you do it quickly rather than dilly dally .Thanks all for your input.
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Offline Old Steve

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Re: Oils for good clutch operation
« Reply #7 on: July 05, 2016, 12:23:41 PM »
Actually, JASO have a specification specifically for motorcycle 4T engine oils for use with wet clutches.  JASO MA and MA2 (higher performance).  I always used an oil meeting JASO MA2, semi-synthetic, API SH, SAE 10W-40 and no problems.  Honda probably specify an oil meeting at least API SG, JASO MA in their handbook - check what the manufacturer says!

Currently I'm using eni (previously AGIP) i-Ride Moto SAE 10W-40.
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Offline alans1100

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Re: Oils for good clutch operation
« Reply #8 on: July 05, 2016, 02:53:59 PM »
Actually, JASO have a specification specifically for motorcycle 4T engine oils for use with wet clutches.  JASO MA and MA2 (higher performance).  I always used an oil meeting JASO MA2, semi-synthetic, API SH, SAE 10W-40 and no problems.  Honda probably specify an oil meeting at least API SG, JASO MA in their handbook - check what the manufacturer says!

Currently I'm using eni (previously AGIP) i-Ride Moto SAE 10W-40.

at least API SE, SF or SG, is in my book which is an older classification but 4T these days would be the standard these days which covers the JASO MA Standard.
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Offline Old Steve

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Re: Oils for good clutch operation
« Reply #9 on: October 06, 2016, 02:02:06 PM »
No Alan, the API oil classification system is for petrol PCMO engines (the API S series of classifications) and diesels (the C series of classifications).  The API classification system makes absolutely no comnsideration that an oil may be used in a wet clutch application.  Only JASO MA or MA2 are indications of wet clutch performance.

Yes, an oil marketed as 4T might also have JASO MA or MA2 included in its alphabet soup.  But what about a Harley Davidson 4T engine oil, no need for wet clutch performance and so unlikely to include JASO MA or MA2 performance.  So always look for an oil specifically stating it meets JASO MA or MA2.

Generally zinc is only an indicator of antiwear performance (the antiwear additive contains zinc, though it is not the zinc itself which provides the antiwear activity).  I've written an article on zinc in PCMO, I'll try to find a copy and post it.  I think it gave a pretty general cover of zinc's antiwear activity and why zinc is being removed from modern PCMOs.

But if you want certified wet clutch performance then you need JASO MA or MA2 on your oil's performance sheet.  I don't know of any diesel engine oils which have a JASO MA or MA2 classification.  However because of viscometrics and other factors in a diesel oil (or non JASO classified PCMO) they might well have similar frictional characteristics to a JASO MA or MA2 oil, just not tested and certified as such.
« Last Edit: October 06, 2016, 02:16:09 PM by Old Steve »
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Offline Old Steve

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Re: Oils for good clutch operation
« Reply #10 on: October 06, 2016, 02:07:47 PM »
Found it.  This article was written to address specific concerns about modern PCMO performance in older engines with flat cam followers.  eni is the modern name for AGIP oil, still has the fire breathing six legged dog on the oil labels.  I work as the Technical Advisor - Fluids and Lubricants for the eni distributor here in New Zealand.

Zinc and the modern Passenger Car Motor Oil.

A Passenger Car Motor Oil contains a number of additives to provide its in-service performance.  Detergent keeps the engine clean, dispersant keeps contaminants in suspension in the oil until they are drained at oil change, oxidation inhibitor stops the oil from thickening and forming resins and varnishes at high oil temperatures, viscosity index improvers produce a multigrade engine oil which gives good low temperature starting viscosity with excellent high temperature viscosity performance, and anti-foam stops the oil frothing.

But probably the one additive in an engine oil formulation that most people recognise would be the anti-wear additive, frequently represented as the zinc content of the oil.  Many engine oil Product Data Sheets will list the zinc content of the oil as an indication of the oil’s anti-wear performance.

It’s actually not the zinc itself in the anti-wear additive that provides the anti-wear effect, it is the phosphorus and sulphur in the zinc based anti-wear additive.  But, because the zinc content of a PCMO is easy to measure, zinc content has become the generally accepted indicator of the engine oil’s anti-wear performance.  Zinc is present in an engine oil formulation in different forms of a metallo-organic compound, zinc dialkyl dithiophoshate (ZDDP).  However, these days the zinc content of a PCMO is not an absolute measurement of that engine oil’s anti-wear performance.

One of the descriptions used to describe a PCMO’s performance are the American Petroleum Institute (API) Service Classifications.  The API is an independent industry body.  For a PCMO, these classifications start with the letter “S”, indicating service station or spark ignition applications.  The different API Service Classifications describe a PCMO’s engine cleanliness, deposit control, oxidation resistance and anti-wear performance.  From API SC in 1964 to API SG in 1989, each move from one “S” classification up to the next was a considerable increase in the level of engine cleanliness, deposit control, oxidation resistance and anti-wear performance.

When API SH was introduced in 1994 there was no change in the engine tests used to specify API SH from those used for API SG.  However, more stringent testing and manufacturing conditions were put in place.  It is estimated that the more rigorous API SH testing and manufacturing regime brought about an overall 10% increase in in-service performance from API SG to API SH.  All these API Service Classifications up to API SH specifically addressed engine and lubricant performance, API SH PCMOs generally included zinc levels of up to 1200 or 1300 parts per million (ppm).  But API SG and SH were the last PCMO service classifications where the zinc level in the engine oil was any reliable indication of the PCMO’s anti-wear performance.

With the introduction of API SJ in 1996 (there are no API SI or SK classifications) the API Service Classifications became focussed on the control of engine oil components whicht could contribute to exhaust catalyst poisoning.  And wouldn’t you know it, one of the main contributors to catalyst poisoning was the phosphorus and sulphur from the ZDDP anti-wear agent!  So from API SJ on, there has been a maximum level set for the phosphorus content in a PCMO.  Effectively, from API SJ onward, the level of ZDDP in engine oils has had to be reduced and other, non-zinc anti-wear compounds used.  The zinc level was no longer an absolute indication of the engine oil’s anti-wear performance.

API Classifications SL, SM and SN all contain specifications for maximum levels of phosphorus and sulphur, and therefore ZDDP, for exhaust catalyst protection.  You will have heard of “Low SAPS” (Low Sulphated Ash, Phosphorus and Sulphur) engine oils, these are engine oils which have reduced levels of ash producing compounds and phosphorus and sulphur so that the engine oil gave maximum exhaust catalyst protection.  However, higher viscosity grades of these modern API classification PCMOs (SAE 40 and above) are exempt from these limits on phosphorus and sulphur, and therefore zinc.

The level of modern engine oil’s anti-wear performance also doesn’t need to be as high because engine designs have evolved.  So while API SJ, API SL, API SM and API SN PCMOs are perfect for modern petrol engines, they may not be ideal for older engines, especially those fitted with flat tappet cam followers.

Because of the high sliding load of flat tappet cam followers on the camshaft in older engines, a higher level of anti-wear agent is desirable to prevent cam lobe wear.  The perfect anti-wear agent for this job is our old friend ZDDP.  And ZDDP at the level found in older, API SH and earlier, engine oils.  Larger engines fitted with flat tappet cam followers benefit from higher viscosity engine oil, such as an SAE 20W-50.

So what does a lubricant distributor do?  Transdiesel is introducing API SL classification eni i-Base Formula Super SAE 20W-50 with a zinc level of 1600 ppm.  eni i-Base Formula Super SAE 15W-40 also has this 1600 ppm zinc level.

The SAE 20W-50 viscosity grade will give older engines, such as big block American V8s and many other older automotive engines, the extra level of anti-wear protection that their design and operation demands.  eni i-Base Formula Super SAE 20W-50 is also ideal for use in the original Mini where the engine and transmission share the same lubricant and SAE 20W-50 engine oil was specified to meet the viscosity requirements of the transmission.
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Offline alans1100

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Re: Oils for good clutch operation
« Reply #11 on: October 06, 2016, 02:38:46 PM »
No Alan, the API oil classification system is for petrol PCMO engines (the API S series of classifications) and diesels (the C series of classifications).  The API classification system makes absolutely no comnsideration that an oil may be used in a wet clutch application.  Only JASO MA or MA2 are indications of wet clutch performance.

I simply stated the minimum oil requirements as stated in the owners manual which when the ST1100 was conceived would have used car based oils. It wasn't until 1998 that the JASO MA standard came into existence.

I haven't seen any 4T oil that wasn't at least MA on the label and I've used Castrol Active 4T (•Exceeds JASO MA2, API SL) for the last few changes

http://www.penriteoil.com.au/tech_pdfs/206%20JASO%20MA-MA1-MB%20Specification%20differences%20MARCH%202014.pdf



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Offline Old Steve

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Re: Oils for good clutch operation
« Reply #12 on: October 06, 2016, 04:41:14 PM »
Well actually, there's also JASO MB designed for scooter transmissions.  I googled it and up came a Caltex product, Havoline Supermatic 4T which meets API SL and JASO MB, plus a lot of other scooter specific 4T engine oils..  OK, its blended in Singapore but I think most Caltex oils sold in Australia and New Zealand are, at least in New Zealand, either Singapore or Thailand.  Don't know if its sold in Australasia though, but 4T MB oils exist.

HD's engine oil is a 4T motorbike engine oil, though I don't know if they market it with the 4T designation, but it doesn't need wet clutch performance.  Don't know what they specify for the transmission, do they run a dry clutch?  They specify a synthetic SAE 20W-50 don't they.

But 4T non JASO MA or MA2 oils exist, though I wouldn't use an API SL 4T JASO MB oil in my bike.  But what you're usingAlan  is good, I'm just worried about those using non-MA or MA2 oils in engines where the oil is shared with the transmission and wet clutch
« Last Edit: October 06, 2016, 04:44:15 PM by Old Steve »
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Re: Oils for good clutch operation
« Reply #13 on: October 06, 2016, 06:06:14 PM »
The HPR 20 W 60 extra ten meets JASO CD plus, it says so on the bottle and on their website

http://www.penriteoil.com.au/products.php?id_categ=2&id_products=392

and its good stuff cos I say it is   o:) o:)
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Offline John g

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Re: Oils for good clutch operation
« Reply #14 on: January 02, 2017, 10:39:33 PM »
 :thumbs Well here we are months after I posted my problem .As I last stated the gear changes had improved but not perfect .there I was thinking I had been spoiled by my previous bikes gearboxes, all being Suzukis' (well renoughn  for their smooth performance )So for months I put up with the less than satisfactory gear changes .I tried all sorts of changing styles from fast and furious  to slow and ponderous ,still it pissed me off to no end that I couldn't get a totally smooth shift.I had already bleed the clutch and taken that of the possible problem list.Thats what honda gearboxes are like I told myself ,especially since I got a friend to test ride it (who owned a BMW R1150).He told me it was great and the bike is soo smooth and quiet.He told me that his gearbox felt like a box full of ring spanners rummaging about .(so much for BMW 's Eh?) Anyway Castrol brake fluid came on special at Repco the other day so I went an bought a couple of bottles ready for a brake fluid change in the near future.I also bought a brake bleeder kit .So I thought I would give it a try on the clutch first to see how it works. Well I was truly amazed,when I connected it up and started bleeding it ,the amount of air that came out was considerable.Hence I solved my initial problem! SMOOTH gear changes.The moral of the story is do it properly the fist time and a couple of air bubbles can give you a lot of grief   Regards John g
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Re: Oils for good clutch operation
« Reply #15 on: January 03, 2017, 12:56:41 AM »
Especially as the trapped air heats, the clutch operation will go to s**t
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Re: Oils for good clutch operation
« Reply #16 on: January 03, 2017, 07:10:37 AM »
Good outcome John, sound like you are happy with the Repco bleeder kit , been looking at getting one.
 

Offline StinkyPete

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Re: Oils for good clutch operation
« Reply #17 on: January 03, 2017, 07:26:26 AM »
John g, can you post a photo of the bleeder kit that you got from Repco please.  :thumb
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Re: Oils for good clutch operation
« Reply #18 on: January 03, 2017, 07:22:21 PM »
Awesome to hear you got it sorted John :thumbs
Thanks for sharing what you did to fix the issue (It may save someone a lot of grief in the future) :hatwave
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Offline John g

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Re: Oils for good clutch operation
« Reply #19 on: January 03, 2017, 09:18:48 PM »
 :||||I have thrown the packaging away but I'll go and get a picture of it complete at Repco ,Pete .otherwise I'll take a photo of the components.
Regards John g.
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Offline alans1100

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Re: Oils for good clutch operation
« Reply #20 on: January 04, 2017, 12:13:46 AM »
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Offline John g

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Re: Oils for good clutch operation
« Reply #21 on: January 04, 2017, 07:21:34 PM »
 :thumb Yes Alan's hit the nail on the head it's the first one .
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Offline Old Steve

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Re: Oils for good clutch operation
« Reply #22 on: March 02, 2017, 06:35:44 AM »
The HPR 20 W 60 extra ten meets JASO CD plus, it says so on the bottle and on their website

http://www.penriteoil.com.au/products.php?id_categ=2&id_products=392

and its good stuff cos I say it is   o:) o:)


Actually Brock, JASO CD Plus has nothing to do with motorcycles.  Japanese diesel engine manufacturers liked older style diesel engine oils with lots of detergent for their older engines to minimise piston undercrown deposits which would inhibit piston cooling.  The ideal diesel engine oil for older Japanese diesel engines was similar to a European SHPD (super high performance diesel engine oil) with sulfated ash up around 1.8% and lots of hard detergent to keep piston undercrowns clean.  The style of oil they liked was very similar to the original API CD (introduced in 1955 I think and finally replaced in the early 80s) and these oils were referred to as CD or CD Plus.  But Japanese CD or CD Plus are just descriptives and not to my knowledge JASO standards.  The API "C" classification system (API CD, CE, CF, CF-4, CF-2, CG-4, CH-4, CI-4, CJ-4 and the latest CK-4 are all for Commercial or Compression ignition (ie. diesel) engine oils.

Penrite, though, seem to think that JASO have a classification "CD Plus".  But then I have a fairly low opinion of Penrite.  I am only aware of three JASO diesel engine oil classifications, JASO DH-1 their older diesel engine oil spec, DH-2 their newer diesel engine oil spec which includes provision for diesel particulate filter (DPF) protection, and DL-1 for passenger car diesel engine oil also with DPF protection.

When I was in Japan in the 1990s visiting the major diesel engine manufacturers, there was no formal/universal standard for a Japanese diesel engine oil and all the major diesel engine manufacturers had their own branded (and specified) diesel engine oils and PCMOs.  The oil company I worked for was able to get Hino, Isuzu, Nissan and Mitsubishi to approve a Japanese specific diesel engine oil, Caltex Delo CXJ SAE 15W-40, as meeting their diesel engine oil requirements.  They tested and approved the oil but never released their test results to us.  Incidentally, we always referred to these four companies in that specific order because it was based on the alphabetic order of the companies and represented no preference for one company over another.

But, if that oil gives you good engine protection and gear change feel, then stick with it.
« Last Edit: March 02, 2017, 06:48:14 AM by Old Steve »
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Offline Greencan

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Re: Oils for good clutch operation
« Reply #23 on: March 13, 2017, 07:42:48 AM »
Quote
Over a short period of time the gears seem to be a bit notchy especially when changing up under high revs.My question is this.Is there an oil out there that is particularly good for clutch operation.

Mornin' John G et al...

The short answer is, probably not if the Honda guidelines are anything to go by AND if the riders expectations of what actually denotes, a notchy gear change.

As you can see only the top 2 of the 7 possible causes of troublesome gear changes are attributed to either the clutch operation or oil. And oil is only cited in context of its viscosity. So with that in mind could you look elsewhere to improve the 1100 gearchange. Yes.

Within the Honda Common Service Manual it makes mention of general points of routine lubrication, one of these is the actual attachment (or pivot point), of the gear lever itself. Removal, dismantling, cleaning and re-greasing of these components will improve the 1100 gear change. I will post a few pics on this later when I fimd em on my desktop.

But for now, the 1100  notchy gear change has been debated since 1991. No oil will remedy this. It will never be as smooth say as a Guzzi Norge', or some Beemers, as it's design wont allow it. It can however, be optimised with a little more thought and maimtenance if you think a little more out of the box of just oils.

Cheers, the can:-)
 
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Online West Aussie Glen

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Re: Oils for good clutch operation
« Reply #24 on: March 13, 2017, 10:47:02 AM »
I use Castrol ACTIV 4T for my GL1500 and genuine Honda oil for my ST1300 and GL1800

Castrol recommend either Castrol Power 1 4T GPS 10W-40 or Power 1 Racing 4T 5W-40 for the ST1300


« Last Edit: March 13, 2017, 10:57:53 AM by West Aussie Glen »
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