OzSTOC
Honda ST1300 Section => Electrics & Electronics - Volts, Amps and Fuses ST1300 => Topic started by: ST2UP on January 26, 2015, 04:12:38 PM
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So here is my tail of woe......well the bikes anyone :H
Battery a couple of years old and lives on a 800ma CTEK......
About 2 months ago went to start bike and got a constant rythmic F1 light flash in unison with the fuel cut off relay clicking and no fuel pump engagement.....no code could be taken as the F1 was never ending.....so I believed was the battery and replaced with a 230 plus CCA and all was well again.
I had used bike a few times without issue over last month and forgot to put CTEK back on so did so about a week ago. Went to ride yesterday, disconected from charger and the F1 / Fuel cut off realy click was back again without the fuel pump relay again. I beleive it may have been the CTEK at fault after I put another 15 charger on for just 2 mins and all was good......I removed charger and started stopped bike a few times over next few minutes without issue. Now thinking I had found the problem in the CTEK I rode off to undertake a little farkling project with a mate.
We were making over mirror mounts for the ST and did have the ignition on quiet a few times with screen up and down to check clearances......when leaving F1 / Clicking and no fuel pump, so no start.
Put a 8amp CTEK on as I did at home and no change....12.8Volts, attempted jump start 14.5 volts and same.
All fuses checked, Kill switch is heard working at its relay, all farkles disconected, Battery contacts re-cleaned, Bike earth under tank spanner checked, Fuel pump given direct 12V then works, 13.3 volts at Battery after on charge for the night, removed Air filter house to check for the dreeded mouse nest and no sign of rodents at all and disconnected the battery completely fro 30 mins to do ECM reset.
With key on, F1/ fuel cut off clicking/ No fuel pump priming 9.2 volt at pump, 4.2 Volts at Relay, 4.2 at ECM by testing at dealer diag plug.
Bike is looking at a trailer ride tomorrow home to put a mates ST1300 beside to do some voltage checks....
Anythoughts before I trailer the bike to a Real Honda dealer hundreds of K's away.....PLEASE :-++
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I'm not sure if I have read this correctly but after the recharge and with the key on, what is the battery voltage?.
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Generaly just under 13.0 Volts
It's an intermittent Voltage issue......just which sensor is it :popcorn
Kill switch, Bank angle, ECM, side stand, earth leakage etc etc.....
:beer
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What is battery voltage on Crank???
The symptoms are of a dead battery, just because it sharges to 12.8V doent mean it has full capacity. The chattering relays are a sure sign. The tip over sensor just kills ignition in event of a fall, and is reset by turning off ignition ECM wont give proper engine monitoring if it has no volts. If kill switch is dud then you wont get crank, so relays wont chatter (unless power is really low)
What lrad did you use to jump start and where did you connect it. If the lead is too thin then you wont get enough voltage under load for a start.
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I can add that we also took the new SSB battery 230 cca out of the equation and added a mates new 220 CCA from his Tiger = No change :-[
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Hmm,
That makes it harder, difficult to fault find from here.
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There is a load resistor in series with the battery which sits on top of the battery on the 1300. It might be worthwhile checking the voltage on the output side of that to help diagnosis.
Allan
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I'm not sure what is on top of the battery, it may be a fuse, but there is no load resistor
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Yeah :like I know the "thing" will do.....
cheers
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I don't have a clue, so this is random....earth
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Electricity is close to black magic, but someone else had advised that electricity is actually smoke. If the smoke leaks out of the wires, the electricity is gone. If you haven't seen the smoke, then the electricity is still in there somewhere, and it's just a matter of finding it.
Glad to be able to help. ++
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Electricity is close to black magic, but someone else had advised that electricity is actually smoke. If the smoke leaks out of the wires, the electricity is gone. If you haven't seen the smoke, then the electricity is still in there somewhere, and it's just a matter of finding it.
Glad to be able to help. ++
Love it Pete, I'm going to put that in my vault for future use!
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StinkyPete says "If the smoke leaks out of the wires, the electricity is gone."
I never knew that.
It's common knowledge that electronic components run on black smoke. When the black smoke escapes the component fails.
It also explains why people generally replace failed electronic components rather than repair them. Its just too hard without specialist workshop tools to get the black smoke back in. :fp
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Joe Lucas (AKA The Prince of Darkness) never understood that principle of electrickery either!
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I hate these sort of problems as they can take ages to track down. I will have a look at a ST1300 wiring diagram and see what is in/controls those circuits. Brocks comment about classic dead battery seems right, so what else is in those circuits that would mimic this dud connection, relay(s) itself. One check might be when the issue arises, bypass the intermediate systems and connect the battery directly to the starter relay output side to turn over the strater motor . Starter relays can go bad on any vehicle. Be wary when doing this as all the safety cutout features will be disabled - sidestand, clutch in etc. - and of course one of those might be the problem.
Voltage to the starter relay to trigger it may be insufficient (starter button circuit). Are the fuses in the starter circuits ok?
I will put a link up to this on a close ST forum to get some other ideas as most of those guys have been around STs and other vehicles a long time.
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No expert on the ST1300, but I know a little about electrickery.
If I interpret what has already been said, the problem is that there is no fuel pump operation because the relay is chattering. Forget even trying to start till you get that fixed. You initial email indicated you have 9.2V at the fuel pump and 4.2v at the fuel pump relay. Looking at the cct diagram the fuel pump coil (in the relay) is fed +12v from the bank angle relay. ( this line also feeds just about every other sensor and the ECU as well ) and what I assume to be earth also from the ECU.
I would check that you are able to get power first. ie pull out the fuel relay and check you have +12v on pins 30 and 85(Black w white trace), if not then trace back through to the bank angle relay pin 30 (Blue w Pink trace) for +12v ( this is fed from fuse L (20A FI, Coil Pump)).
If there appears to be +12v everywhere I would suggest there is an Earth Missing somewhere in the system causing all the voltages to float effectively.
Don't forget the fuel pump is only on for a few seconds when you turn the key
Hope this helps
Hendo
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There is a load resistor in series with the battery which sits on top of the battery on the 1300. It might be worthwhile checking the voltage on the output side of that to help diagnosis.
Allan
Thanks Allan....check and same both sides :like
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Have you tried starting with the bike in neutral, I cant see any where that you did that. It could be the clutch switch or neutral switch.
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Yeah thanks Brock in Neutral.....confirmed by dash light and rocked bike :like
Seams to be power to the fuel shut off Relay that is the issue, but relay is fine :grin
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I think I need a hug :-[ :-X This is not the place for a ST :OldMan
(http://i1355.photobucket.com/albums/q717/ST2UP/1b1e2c59ce06088d40fe30590b61601d_zpsaff71683.jpg)
Thanks to Odyssey Rider for the loan of his trailer :-++
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Now that's something I haven't seen before, an ST that hasn't been in an accident on a trailer :eek
:'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'(
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I dont have a decent 1300 wiring diagram, so its a bit difficult to problem hunting.
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At least it's being taken to hospital in a professional looking ambulance.
Where do I send flowers? :'(
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I can add that we also took the new SSB battery 230 cca out of the equation and added a mates new 220 CCA from his Tiger = No change :-[
It really does sound like low volts.
My replacement ST arrived from Sydney with an open circuit battery. My lightweight jumper leads were not good enough to get the engine to crank. The heavy leads that I keep in my 4WD helped it fire straight up.
Did the battery from the ST start your mate's bike?
Like Brock was asking, what are the terminal volts on the battery when you press the starter button?
Regards
John
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I have progressed just a little further in my diagnostic attempts.....I have a another ST1300 sitting beside STig now. Plan has been to do voltage check comparisons etc.
And Battery from other ST doesn't start STig either....haven't done Visa-versa :think1 thanks JC :-++
We have a cracker of a young bike mechanic here in town who mostly played with Kwaka's and now chooks chasers, farm bikes of all manner he is coming with a few tricks in his bag this afternoon....
;-*
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My sneaky suspicion is the Bank Angle sensor :think1
I believe it is locked behind the right headlight, anyone confirm so I don't needlessly remove ALL of the front end to get to it ?? Any short cuts I should know about ??
Cheers
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:think1
I can't see any comments on how fast the engine cranks over.
Does it spin freely and just not fire up?
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:think1
I can't see any comments on how fast the engine cranks over.
Does it spin freely and just not fire up?
Yep sounds as it should.....just with no happy ending :popcorn
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You'll need to take the bike to Bangkok to get it repaired with a happy ending. :spank
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Think I have found the issue more soon ;-*
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:runyay :runyay
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And it's back to the drawing board :H
Bank Angle sensor is all good, thought I had found it :Whipped Side stand sensor :like Common ground under tank :like Voltage when cranking stays above 12.3 volts :like Clutch switch :like Neutral switch :like
Running out of things to put a multimeter on..... :p
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Bugger. :fp
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Chris,
Back to basics
Fuel- Is the fuel pump priming ( can you hear it or the relay clicking)
Spark - Have you checked for spark on the sparkplug when cranking over.
Air- Obvious , but there are no blockages as you said you already checked.
I'm still hedging bets that it is a fuel problem
What are the voltages at the fuel cut relay again?
Heres what they should be at initial ignition switch on( measured in brackets, battery a little flat):
BL/Wh (Both are the same) - Slightly less than battery voltage (11.2V)
Br - about the same as BL/Wh (10.9V)until the pump reaches pressure approx. 2 seconds then 0V(0V)
Br/Wh - 0V ( 0.1V) till primed approx 2 secs then slightly less than battery voltage (11.2V)
When Bike is Running:
BL/Wh (Both are the same) - Slightly less than battery voltage (13.4V)
Br - about the same as BL/Wh (13.4v)
Br/Wh - 0V (0.1V)
Hope you fix soon.
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Have you operated the kill switch a few times i have had that
Peter
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Have a good look at the connections on the starter relay,. one of the guys here in the westhad aproblem ere last week end. He was only about 100 ks away from home.....
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The Manual has about 50 pages showing troubleshooting of the fuel injection system.
Have you read pages 5-4 and 5-11, yet?
Have you run the diagnostics procedure, to see if any fault records have been recorded?
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The 5 way vacuum connector within the air chamber can sometimes clog and causes problems . . I've not experienced this and so don't know what the symtoms are . . Others on the forum who have had this problem may care to divulge what the obstruction results in and what the symtoms are?
Could it be an intermittent problem with the vacuum which may effect the fuel cutoff valve?
Also 4.10 of the Haynes Manual gives a description of the F1 fault codes, Symtoms and possible causes . . Does your F1 display any of the codes?
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Well I have reached the limit of my limited electrical diagnostic skills.....Have a auto electrician calling in tomorrow to hopefully do a lot more than I could achieve with a multimeter, test light and schematic wiring diagram. I have tested earth's, switches, relays, diodes and sensors......
Even the 2 local Honda dealer recommended a Auto sparkie to take this one on :||||
Even walked away from STig a few times eyeing of the mower fuel container :p Hopefully a fresh pair of eyes with loads more lecky experience will find the fault so we can move forward ;-*
Massive :-++ to everyone for your ideas and experiences :thumbsup
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Problem found and fixed....will post a detailed report on where the issue was and now I fixed after the weekends FarRide :like
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Awesome news :thumbs
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:runyay :runyay :runyay :runyay :runyay :runyay again
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STig the bad a$$ in black is back :runyay
Read above to see the issue and all the fantastic advise from you ST nuts that kept me in the shed (which has a beer fridge) for hours on end :whistle
After not being able to find the fault but ending up with a bike that started all the tupperware and electrical do dads where reinstalled methodically and the bike tested after each movement of anything....without fault, but knowning the fault was still underlying :H
Even a 100k test ride proved nothing......but next morning after starting (well priming the fuel pump) a ridiculous number of times the previous day......NO GO ! :cuss
But aleast I had the fault back to find :think1
Another strip down and a hour with the multimeter and it was found :hatwave
There is an active wire between the Fuel cut-off relay and the Engine stop relay that didn't have continuity ....and although these 2 relays sit side by side on the left side of the bike the active wire disapears back into the loom for an unknown distance only to return......
(http://i1355.photobucket.com/albums/q717/ST2UP/043f9e6e770abbc58255a9d1034b98c7_zpsfc1803d5.jpg)
When discovered it was now a simple repair.....I used a weatherproof inline blade fuse holder with a 20amp fuse to bridge the fault. I used the fuse so IF I choose to get motivated in the future to open the wiring loom to the fault I can replicated the
drama.
thanks for all the words of encouragment and all your ideas :thumbsup :-++
:beer
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So somehow the wire broke along inside the loom somewhere!?
Who'd have thought?
Looms are supposed to be pretty much bullet-proof, with the faults occurring on the single wires (chafes to earth etc).
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We have a lot of smart folk in this club....well done and thank you for sharing ++ ++ ++
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There is an active wire between the Fuel cut-off relay and the Engine stop relay that didn't have continuity ....and although these 2 relays sit side by side on the left side of the bike the active wire disapears back into the loom for an unknown distance only to return......
([url]http://i1355.photobucket.com/albums/q717/ST2UP/043f9e6e770abbc58255a9d1034b98c7_zpsfc1803d5.jpg[/url])
When discovered it was now a simple repair.....I used a weatherproof inline blade fuse holder with a 20amp fuse to bridge the fault. I used the fuse so IF I choose to get motivated in the future to open the wiring loom to the fault I can replicated the
drama.
Something may have changed. I've looked at the wiring diagram supplied by Honda and cannot see an Engine Stop Relay in that part of the circuit to/from the Fuel Cut-off Relay. Is that picture from a Haynes Manual?
Is the Black/White wire at 12V+ve or a common 12V-ve? :think1
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Yep thanks from the Hayes manual ;-* and the wire in question is an active feed +Ve.....
Thanks for posting the other diagram from Honda....have stashed it away for future reference :like
:beer