Author Topic: The Truth About Weight Distribution and Trailers...  (Read 1173 times)

Offline ruSTynutz

  • NR2024 Rally Team
  • Supreme "2000" Club Member
  • *
  • Posts: 4434
  • Thanked: 2794 times
    • "Destined to Drive" Driving School
The Truth About Weight Distribution and Trailers...
« on: June 20, 2022, 11:19:04 AM »


I thought this video might be handy for members who tow caravans & trailers and would be
just as relevant for those towing a trailer with their motorcycle...

                               https://youtu.be/JeEEC5eVNCk


        2005 Honda ST1300A
 
The following users thanked this post: Williamson, Dragonstaff

Offline Brock

  • Tardis Tech
  • UNBELIEVABLE "5000 Posts" Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 8714
  • Thanked: 1692 times
  • White is the fastest
Re: The Truth About Weight Distribution and Trailers...
« Reply #1 on: June 20, 2022, 03:11:37 PM »
Quote
just as relevant for those towing a trailer with their motorcycle

 I would tend to the side of extremely relevant, as you dont want the trailer to drive the bike..
Brock
Asian Correspondent
2003 Honda ST1100PY



Ulysses #32829
STOC #8239
OzSToc # ??
Kinross WA
 
The following users thanked this post: Williamson, ruSTynutz, Dragonstaff

Online Williamson

  • UNBELIEVABLE "5000 Posts" Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 5063
  • Thanked: 2202 times
  • ST Legend
Re: The Truth About Weight Distribution and Trailers...
« Reply #2 on: June 20, 2022, 06:42:07 PM »
With the experience of something like 50,000km with a trailer behind the CB1300 and now the ST1300, I agree that weight distribution is very important. 

One trip with Classic Trailer (no. 1) behind the CB1300, it became apparent at as low 80km/h that I had a problem with some trailer sway, however this was not as alarming as might be considered.  As the CB1300 was relatively light (compared to the ST1300) at around 260kg, any sway was immediately evident, and remedial action (moving items) taken immediately. 



Even after weight re-distribution, the sway was not fully under control because the tyre pressures were too high.  All was well after dropping the tyre pressures. Tow Ball Mass (TBM) of around 10 to 12kg seemed to be the sweet spot.

With lessons learned, I never had any problems with the Elite Camper Trailer or Classic no. 2.





Classic Trailer no. 3 was different matter, weight distribution and TBM is critical - around 15 to 17kg is sweet.  This means that after consuming a slab of beers, and food taken into a rally (two nights bush camping), as well as taking into account that ice has melted and water used, I need to re-organise / re-distribute the trailer load for the ride home.

Going to a rally.



On way home from a rally.





Cheers,  Williamson (AKA Michael)

Motorcycling, the best time you can have with your pants on.
eBiking, the second best time you can have with your pants on
Afterlife, up there for the climate, down there for the company.
If I'd known I was gunna live this long, I woulda looked after myself better
 
The following users thanked this post: ruSTynutz, Dragonstaff

Offline ruSTynutz

  • NR2024 Rally Team
  • Supreme "2000" Club Member
  • *
  • Posts: 4434
  • Thanked: 2794 times
    • "Destined to Drive" Driving School
Re: The Truth About Weight Distribution and Trailers...
« Reply #3 on: June 20, 2022, 09:34:25 PM »
When I delivered my Ali-Lite to its new owner I was a little concerned about the load being mostly behind the axle.

In hindsight I probably should have loaded it facing the opposite direction but I couldn't be bothered unloading it and turning it around after roping Sue into helping me lift it up there in the first place.

With the dolly wheel adding a bit of extra weight on the front it all probably looked worse than it actually was.
There was no issue towing (even sitting on 100kph) other than probably a bit more rattling of the coupling which suggested to me that there wasn't much weight on the ball.



        2005 Honda ST1300A
 

Online Williamson

  • UNBELIEVABLE "5000 Posts" Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 5063
  • Thanked: 2202 times
  • ST Legend
Re: The Truth About Weight Distribution and Trailers...
« Reply #4 on: June 21, 2022, 07:06:53 AM »
.... I was a little concerned about the load being mostly behind the axle.

In hindsight I probably should have loaded it facing the opposite direction but I couldn't be bothered unloading it and turning it around ....


Looks like you coulda moved it forward for a more even weight distribution.
Cheers,  Williamson (AKA Michael)

Motorcycling, the best time you can have with your pants on.
eBiking, the second best time you can have with your pants on
Afterlife, up there for the climate, down there for the company.
If I'd known I was gunna live this long, I woulda looked after myself better
 
The following users thanked this post: ruSTynutz

Offline StinkyPete

  • Defected to a BMW
  • NR2016 Group
  • UNBELIEVABLE "5000 Posts" Member
  • *
  • Posts: 6533
  • Thanked: 2946 times
  • Blackwood, SA
Re: The Truth About Weight Distribution and Trailers...
« Reply #5 on: June 21, 2022, 08:03:06 AM »
That's an excellent video, and taught me quite a bit.  As a careful and conservative caravanner, with some knowledge about weight distribution,  thought I knew all I needed to know about towing my van, but no so.
IBA #59146   OzLapper 2012 & 2019

Yamaha XS650  (The Black Wobbler)
Yamaha XJR1300 (Rocket Ship)
Honda ST1300 (Beautiful Bike)
BMW R1200RT (Technically Perfect)
 
The following users thanked this post: ruSTynutz

Offline Gadget

  • UNBELIEVABLE "5000 Posts" Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 5564
  • Thanked: 2098 times
  • Just Ridin'
Re: The Truth About Weight Distribution and Trailers...
« Reply #6 on: June 21, 2022, 08:09:50 AM »
.... I was a little concerned about the load being mostly behind the axle.

In hindsight I probably should have loaded it facing the opposite direction but I couldn't be bothered unloading it and turning it around ....


Looks like you coulda moved it forward for a more even weight distribution.
Axle directly above axle by putting the tow bar over the front of the trailer.

Not relying the jockey wheel at the front should have made for a more secure Tie-down.

Sent from my SM-N986B using Tapatalk

Cheers,
Gary
_________________________________________________________________________________________________________
Then  :blu13 Now :Spyder
Life's too short to be miserable, so enjoy it! :)
OzSTOC #257
FarRider #810
IBA #59140

Mob: 04 2448 3555
 
The following users thanked this post: Williamson, ruSTynutz

Offline ruSTynutz

  • NR2024 Rally Team
  • Supreme "2000" Club Member
  • *
  • Posts: 4434
  • Thanked: 2794 times
    • "Destined to Drive" Driving School
Re: The Truth About Weight Distribution and Trailers...
« Reply #7 on: June 21, 2022, 10:19:04 AM »
Looks like you coulda moved it forward for a more even weight distribution.

Axle directly above axle by putting the tow bar over the front of the trailer.

Not relying the jockey wheel at the front should have made for a more secure Tie-down.

Originally I was going to drop the front tail gate down so I could keep the trailer weight more central but when the trailer actually fitted without dropping it I decided to chance it.
With the tail gate remaining up it also stopped any movement forward under braking...and actually made tying down nice and easy.
The trailer is light...it's only 60+kg even with the esky and bits & pieces I'd placed inside so while the weight distribution may not have been perfect, at the end of the day there wasn't actually much weight behind the trailer axle...  :thumb



        2005 Honda ST1300A
 

Offline Dragonstaff

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 418
  • Thanked: 274 times
  • Dave
Re: The Truth About Weight Distribution and Trailers...
« Reply #8 on: June 21, 2022, 08:11:16 PM »

The trailer is light...it's only 60+kg even with the esky and bits & pieces I'd placed inside so while the weight distribution may not have been perfect, at the end of the day there wasn't actually much weight behind the trailer axle...  :thumb

The 6X4 would not have felt that. You might as well have been towing it empty, except for a bit of drag and any side wind.
THERE ARE OLD RIDERS, AND THERE ARE BOLD RIDERS, BUT THERE ARE DAMN FEW OLD AND BOLD RIDERS.

Keep the dirty side down.

2003 ST 1300
1984 1200 Goldwing
1981 GL 500 Silverwing
1980 CX500
(Not all bikes are running at the current time)
 
The following users thanked this post: ruSTynutz

Offline ppopeye

  • RTE Coordinator
  • Legendary "1000 Club" Member
  • *
  • Posts: 1588
  • Thanked: 567 times
Re: The Truth About Weight Distribution and Trailers...
« Reply #9 on: June 22, 2022, 01:24:32 PM »
Interesting video. One thing I picked up was that loading extra at front or rear is equally bad.
ppopeye

I never ride faster than my angel can fly!

2005 Red ST1300
2012 Red GL1800

Bikes I've had
Yamaha 500
Honda450
Honda CL175
 

Offline Brock

  • Tardis Tech
  • UNBELIEVABLE "5000 Posts" Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 8714
  • Thanked: 1692 times
  • White is the fastest
Re: The Truth About Weight Distribution and Trailers...
« Reply #10 on: June 22, 2022, 03:59:40 PM »
For sure.

Too much load at the front of a trailer/Van, causes the load on the tow vehicles (tug) front wheels to unload = no steering always bad.. Too much to the rear causes the trailer to sway, causing the tug to sway = disaster at speed. This is what happens to caravans fairly often, and spreads them over the side of the road.
Brock
Asian Correspondent
2003 Honda ST1100PY



Ulysses #32829
STOC #8239
OzSToc # ??
Kinross WA
 

Offline ppopeye

  • RTE Coordinator
  • Legendary "1000 Club" Member
  • *
  • Posts: 1588
  • Thanked: 567 times
Re: The Truth About Weight Distribution and Trailers...
« Reply #11 on: June 22, 2022, 05:51:33 PM »
Pinched from Truck Friendly facebook page



CARAVAN SWAY – ‘THE PROJECT’ TV PROGRAM
Did they get it right? – Many say NO.


I have been contacted by many caravanners regarding the recent story on Chanel 10 program, ‘The Project’ regarding caravanning and focusing on caravan sway.


The story follows the unfortunate accident via their actual dashcam footage, where two people were involved in a caravan rollover caused by caravan sway in central Queensland. Luckily, they escaped the vehicle and caravan rollover with minimal physical injuries but some mental trauma.


I applaud The Project, the driver and passenger for sharing their story and helping bring awareness to caravan road safety education. It must have taken a lot of courage reliving the trauma.


The video clearly shows the speed from when you note something is going wrong to when they are upside down on the side of the road.


In the article it mentions that to stop caravan sway they were instructed to accelerate to pull the van straight which would stop the sway. They said that accelerating was against the natural instinct to brake when things get out of control and one occupant of the vehicle can be heard calling out “don’t Brake” just before the car and van roll.


The presenters also picked up on this instruction.


I and many others believe that this is very dangerous advice and NOT be followed nor taught.


A FEW POINTS TO CONSIDER.
When the tow vehicle and caravan will start to sway, on any dash cam video you care to watch on the internet of caravan sway you will note, that the rig is completely out of control before the 5 second mark is reached.


You have less than 5 seconds from onset of the sway to mentally understand what is happening, think about what you should be doing and not doing, take the appropriate action and for that action to have an effect. This is all probably while the passengers are yelling instructions to you, and you need to decipher all that information.


A big call for any driver.
During sway the caravan is actually travelling faster, back and forth than the tow vehicle. The action that almost all agree on is that you need to stretch out the rig during sway. This can be done by the car going faster or the van going slower.


No argument with that advice.


However, I have yet to see any tow vehicle that can accelerate fast enough at highway speeds to make enough difference in the less than 5 seconds you have before you are out of control.


Secondly, speed is a large contributing factor to caravan sway. The faster you go the more chance you will experience sway, the more severe the sway and the less reaction time you will have.


Therefore, speeding up may actually intensify the sway that already exists making the situation worse.


Remembering the experience of the two in the video, that accelerating is also against your natural instinct when things get out of control. The instinct is to brake.


1. SO DON’T TRY AND ACCELERATE OUT OF CARAVAN SWAY
Most tow vehicles and caravans are now fitted with electric brakes with a caravan override brake controller on the tow vehicle dash.


Pressing the caravan brake override should activate the caravan brakes.


By pressing this button/switch the caravan brakes should activate to help slow the caravan and help reduce or stop the immediate caravan sway. This is far more efficient and faster acting than accelerating the tow vehicle. Remember a max of 5 sec to act and for it to work.


This reduces the speed of the caravan to that of the tow vehicle meaning then caravan has lost the extra speed causing the sway.


POINTS TO CONSIDER.
a) Is the caravan brake override button in a convenient and easily accessible location on the dash?
b) Can you easily see it so you can locate it when the vehicle is getting out of control?
c) Have you adjusted the caravan brakes to highway speed and higher activation pressure?
d) Many drivers reduce the caravan brakes around town to help avoid skidding but forget to reset them to the required higher pressure for faster highway speeds. Low pressure caravan brake settings can be ineffective in and emergency.
e) Have you practiced activating the brake override so that it becomes second nature, and you will have muscle memory activating it in an emergency? Ask your passenger to regularly, and suddenly get you to activate or pretend to activate the brake button, when it is safe, so it becomes second nature.
f) During a sway event the caravan brakes should be applied with the tow vehicle steering wheel centralized. Do not try and steer out of caravan sway.


2. ACTIVATE THE CORRECTLY ADJUSTED CARAVAN OVERRIDE BUTTON TO HELP REDUCE / STOP THE SWAY.


3. TAKE ACTION BEFORE YOUR TRIP TO FULLY UNDERSTAND WHAT CAUSES CARAVAN SWAY AND HOW TO HELP PREVENT IT FROM STARTING IN THE FIRST PLACE.


Prevention is far better than cure.
THE CAUSES OF CARAVAN SWAY
A. Incorrect loading of the caravan with too much weigh or too much weight on the rear. The typical Australian caravan should be loaded with approx. 10% of the total caravan weight on the tow hitch. Too much weight in the rea is one of the major causes of sway. Large and heavy boxes mounted (often illegally) on the rear bumper will contribute to sway.


No, counterbalancing that heavy box with extra weight on the ‘A’ frame does not work either. Any pendulum with more weight on the ends will be harder to stop swinging.


Before I get the usual, the European vans have lighter tow hitch weights, and my van only has a light weight on the hitch wen I bought it comments, let’s look at the facts.
European vans are usually a lot lighter than Australian vans. They travel at lower speeds and shorter distances than the Aussie Vans.


They are often towed by front wheel drive vehicles limiting the tow ball weight to ensure front wheel traction.


They often use friction tow hitch couplings to help reduce caravan sway.


Australian caravans have a tare weight and tow ball mass rated on the compliance plate. Many notice that the tow ball weight may be very light when purchased from the dealer.


However, the van often has a front boot or tunnel boot for storage which is basically empty on purchase, (gas bottles accepted). There is allowance usually, built into the design for extra weight like your personal items and ‘stuff’ to be added to these storage areas to bring the tow ball weight to around the preferred 10%.


The manufacturer has no control on what you, as driver responsible, actually loads into them.


B. Do not tow your caravan over 100 kph no matter how confident that you are that you have ‘the perfect rig set up’.
C.


Western Australia and NSW (Vehicles over 4.5t GCM) have strict 100 kph speed limits for towing for a reason. They do not bring in these laws without good reason.


All caravans will sway at some point, and it is usually just the speed that will make the difference between a usually stable rig to one that is uncontrollable. The better the set up of the rig the higher the speed before the sway has an effect.


We have all heard of even new caravans that can’t be driven over 80 or 90 kph without swaying, yet they feel stable at 70 kph. Speed is the factor between drivability and non-drivability.


The faster you go the more severe the sway will be and the less reaction time you will have, resulting in a more severe the consequences.


D. Wind gusts, either naturally occurring or from passing vehicles can create wind dams and suction to help unstable an otherwise stable rig.


You will note in The Project video that the caravan rig was gaining on a truck up ahead and shortly after it was passed by a triple road train, all went pair shape for the caravan rig.
The road train has an air dam in front pushing the can away and a strong suction behind sucking the van back in.


While the video was interrupted at the crucial moment after the triple road train passed the caravan became uncontrollably unstable shortly after. While it is difficult to just the effect in that particular crash from the dash cam footage, wind is a very strong contributing factor to unstable caravans.
The internet is full of dash cam videos of caravans that become unstable after passing or be passed by large trucks.


E. Tyre pressures have a big impact on caravan sway.
F.


Too low a pressure, and the caravan may be subject to oversteer which can the caravan to overreact to any change in direction caused by the over flexing of the tyre wall.


Too high a tyre pressure, and the caravan may be subject to understeer, while more desirable can also cause bad handling issues.


Follow the manufacturers / tyre experts’ recommendations and ensure you keep the tow vehicle and caravan tyres in good condition and at the recommended pressures. Replace every 5 – 7 years no matter how much wear they have left and the side walls perish with age.


G. Badly matched and set up tow vehicle and caravans.
Trying to pull a heavy caravan with a lighter tow vehicle is a recipe for disaster. A light tow vehicle will easily be tossed around by a heavy caravan or trailer. This is basic physics.


Exercise in physics: - Pick up a young child and tow them playfully around. You will find that as a heavier adult your will usually be in control.


Now pick up a teenager and do the same thing and you will find that you will be thrown off balance by the heavier load.


This is a basic law of physics and cannot be altered by any electronic or mechanical means that people mistakenly believe makes it OK to tow a 3.5 t caravan with a 2.8 t tow vehicle.


What about the semi=trailer prime mover and heavy trailer some will mistakenly argue?  They are like cheese and chalk. A semi-trailer is NOT a ‘Pig’ trailer towed by an overhung hitch which is far more unstable than the preferred and stable semi-trailer or 5th wheeler design where the hitch is directly over the rear axle.


H. An overhung hitch like that used by almost all caravan rigs is 1 – 1.5 m behind the rear axle meaning that any slight movement to the right by the front of the car has a corresponding movement to the left at the rear hitch of the car.


That is the very reason so many people have problems backing a caravan and end up reversing the van in the wrong direction.


At speed any hard steering by the tow vehicle will naturally send the caravan in the opposite direction, helping bring on caravan sway in what may have been considered a stable rig to that point.


I. Over reliance on electronic and mechanical ‘anti-sway’ and other technology to ‘fix’ unsafe towing practices.
J.


Now before you all jump up and down saying I love my electronic anti-sway and it has saved me many times, I have to ask, “why is it saving you in the first place”.


If your rig regularly feels the anti-sway cutting in, then I believe that you have a serious problem with the stability of your rig. Fix what is causing the stability issue NOT the symptom.


You should NOT feel the anti-sway cut in if your rigs is stable enough not to need it.


YES, I strongly recommend that you fit anti-sway electronic stability and mechanical ant-sway units, I use them, but do not rely on them to fix a problem.


They only help reduce the symptom of the problem.


FIX THE PROBLEM – NOT THE SYMPTOM as the problem will still be there waiting to reappear in an emergency situation.


Your van should be set up to perform well in an emergency situation, not just everyday driving.


LEARN AND OBSERVE SAFE TOWING PRACTICES AND HOW TO SET UP YOUR CARAVAN FOR SAFE TOWING.


All the bolt on accessories in the world will not compensate for poor suspension, overloading, incorrect loading, poor tyres and tyre pressures, incorrectly adjusted brakes, matching of tow vehicle and caravan, excessive swerving and high-speed towing.


Learn the basics right first and it can save you a lot of money fixing a symptom and it may save your life or the life of another road user.


Above all stay safe and enjoy your caravanning.


Cheers
Ken Wilson
#truckfriendly
ppopeye

I never ride faster than my angel can fly!

2005 Red ST1300
2012 Red GL1800

Bikes I've had
Yamaha 500
Honda450
Honda CL175
 
The following users thanked this post: ruSTynutz, Dragonstaff

Offline Brock

  • Tardis Tech
  • UNBELIEVABLE "5000 Posts" Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 8714
  • Thanked: 1692 times
  • White is the fastest
Re: The Truth About Weight Distribution and Trailers...
« Reply #12 on: June 22, 2022, 06:03:30 PM »
Being able to turn on the trailer brakes, is essentially the same thing as accelerating.. But a Honda accord with a 3T van cant accelerate  (shouldnt have been hooked up in the first place).

All vans should have a good 360degree rotating hitch ( like a McHitch) , at least if you get in trouble the van wont roll the car..  I have just fitted one to my trailer, its excellent..



This hitch also has the benefit of being just able to drive away from it or back onto, if parked in an odd situation. No lifting required.
Brock
Asian Correspondent
2003 Honda ST1100PY



Ulysses #32829
STOC #8239
OzSToc # ??
Kinross WA
 

Offline ruSTynutz

  • NR2024 Rally Team
  • Supreme "2000" Club Member
  • *
  • Posts: 4434
  • Thanked: 2794 times
    • "Destined to Drive" Driving School
Re: The Truth About Weight Distribution and Trailers...
« Reply #13 on: June 22, 2022, 10:46:07 PM »
Here's the video from "The Project"...  :thumbsup

https://youtu.be/8RjG0xdsUCY


        2005 Honda ST1300A
 

Offline ruSTynutz

  • NR2024 Rally Team
  • Supreme "2000" Club Member
  • *
  • Posts: 4434
  • Thanked: 2794 times
    • "Destined to Drive" Driving School
Re: The Truth About Weight Distribution and Trailers...
« Reply #14 on: June 22, 2022, 11:06:36 PM »
I believe many people will get themselves in trouble by buying a 4WD or a big Ute with a so called towing capacity of, say, 3 - 3 1/2 tonne believing they can then hook up a van weighing that much...  :||||


        2005 Honda ST1300A
 

Offline ruSTynutz

  • NR2024 Rally Team
  • Supreme "2000" Club Member
  • *
  • Posts: 4434
  • Thanked: 2794 times
    • "Destined to Drive" Driving School
Re: The Truth About Weight Distribution and Trailers...
« Reply #15 on: June 26, 2022, 10:38:13 AM »
Complete guide to heavy towing (GVM, GCM & ATM explained)

https://youtu.be/swUDFWQ5QhI


        2005 Honda ST1300A