The Surprises you find when you pull the rear wheel off to fit a new tyre

[2Triky]

Well the things you find when you pull your wheel out to fit a new tyre. There is a spliney thing that has some bearing thingies in there, that didn't look like they were very healthy. Oh Shoot, fit the tyre, fit the wheel and I'am going home. Sorry Brocky I had to cancel the ride with the Honda boys today. A quick trip to the Honda Spares man, identified the bearings which there are 2 of, unfortunately they only had one in stock so the bike is parked for a few days. A quick haggle over the price of the bearings without the bullshit Honda mark up, and the price suddenly became realistic. The Perth forecast is 40 today, so real early this morning, not knowing anything about disassembling the beasts rear end, after referring to the work shop manual the spanners began flying. 30 minutes later the wheel was out and on the floor (with me). A quick referral to the manual again, and 30 minutes later the offending bearings were out and on the bench in about 15 pieces. Turns out the failed bearing is only a "carrier bearing" and not holding any substantial load. The bearing was rotating smoothly and in plenty of lubricant, so I probably could have continued to ride for a long time yet before any real melt down. But it was burning a hole in my head, it has to be repaired ASAP, so i could not have ridden comfortably knowing what might be???? Yep, it is missing a ship load of balls, and the cage, so I am buggered if i know where they went, as they are not in the hub. even the good bearing is missing the rubber seal around the cage, so it was most likely to fail next. Once I got the bearings separated "carefully" with my trusty bearing remover (a bronze drift and hammer) doing the merry tap around dance a roo, the bearings were out. Total job time to disassemble and clean up was just one hour from a complete novice on the machine. So i wonder what Mr Honda (and his underpaid apprentice) would have charged. I expect another hour to re assemble. To the avid Honda ST 1300 owners, enjoy the photos. Oh, repair costs to me will be less than $45. I suspect Mr Honda would have charged many hundreds of $$$$$$. Love this hands on stuff, I wonder what else i can fix???http://ozstoc.com/Smileys/default/wht13.gif
 

[Abe]

Thanks for the "heads up" 2Tricky, I'll check mine next tyre change.

How many K's on the clock.

Lucky you found that bearing at home and not on a long ride.

But where did the missing rubber and balls go 

[2Triky]

yeah, good question?  cant see the bits anywhere, although half the cage was hanging out the side of the bearing.  Maybe it wasn't manufactured correctly in the first place.  The beast has only just clocked up 70K.  which sort of suggests it wasn't an age or a long distance issue.  Most likely a dud bearing from day one.  Especially considering it isn't a "loaded" bearing, so to speak.

[Biggles]

Great work on the amateur pull-down and good photos.
It's amazing what these bikes will keep running "without".
Your guess seems pretty good- a dodgy bearing out of the factory.  It seems plenty of grease was pushed in my successive tyre changers which has been what saved the day.  It's also probably what stopped them seeing the condition of the bearing.

That's the cleanest wheel-well I've ever seen- you must have high-pressure hosed it out for the photos.

[2Triky]

Nah, I keep my bike squeaky clean.  However, it did have a very thorough clean after our ride up to Kalbarri and back on the Oz day long weekend.  and the Bike Doctor wiped the rim clean after he fitted the new tyre.  I also purchased some 100% moly grease from the States, so everytime the wheel comes off, I hand the tube of grease to the mechanic and ensure he uses it, which they do.  the little tube lives in my top box for ready use, so to speak.

[West Aussie Glen]

Mick,
They are standard 6905 RS or 6905 2RS bearings. Any of the many bearing suppliers in Perth should have them in stock.
The RS stands for rubber seal so bearing number is RS or 2 RS depending on if they have seals on one side or both sides.
Cheers
Glen

[Shiney]

Awesome work mate, thanks for sharing

[2Triky]

Oh thanks for the info Glen.  I have already ordered them from the Honda shop.  But when they come in, if they have not got rubber seals on both sides, I will pass them in and go for the parts you suggest.  I think seals on both sides will be the way to go.  It appears that the Honda fit only has the seals on one side, possibly because they are placed side by side.  However, if one shits itself, it is likely to contaminate the adjacent bearing in that case.

[West Aussie Glen]

I would keep them as Honda designed. If the originals only had one seal, Honda can't supply and you have to buy 2RS ones you can just pull one seal out.
How much are Honda charging for them?

[Old Steve]

Their is an international numbering system for metric bearings:

First number/s identify the type of bearing.  6 is single row ball bearing, 7 is single row angular contact, 1 is double row ball self aligning, 22 is double row spherical roller self aligning, etc

Second number is the "series", eg 3 is heavy, 2 is normal, 0 is light, 9 is extra light, and I think there is even an 8 extra extra light series.

The last two numbers donate bore size,  00 is 10 mm, 01 is 12 mm, 03 is 15 mm, 04 is 17 mm and thereafter the bore is 5 mm x the number.  In an "-08" bearing the bore is 40 mm.  Below 10 mm, there is only one number, so 629 is a 9 mm bore, 608 is 8 mm bore and so on.

Then there are suffixes, Z and ZZ mean metal shields, RS and 2RS (and other manufacturer dependant suffixes for specific types of seal) means rubber seals, NR means a circlip groove and ring, C2 means less internal clearance, C3 means more internal clearance.

So the bearings in this case are extra light series, single row ball bearing, 25 mm bore, 42 mm OD and 9 mm wide, with one and two rubber seals respectively.  Should be available from any bearing company, might not be available off the shelf as this series is not usually stocked everywhere.

[Biggles]

Thanks Steve, that's been copied and pasted to my collected wisdom file.

[West Aussie Glen]

Thanks Steve,
I have been involved in purchasing and installing bearings for work since about 1972 and didn't know the points that you raised that I have quoted below.
The old White SKF bearing catalog lived on my desk.

First number/s identify the type of bearing.  6 is single row ball bearing, 7 is single row angular contact, 1 is double row ball self aligning, 22 is double row spherical roller self aligning, etc

Second number is the "series", eg 3 is heavy, 2 is normal, 0 is light, 9 is extra light, and I think there is even an 8 extra extra light series.

The last two numbers donate bore size,  00 is 10 mm, 01 is 12 mm, 03 is 15 mm, 04 is 17 mm and thereafter the bore is 5 mm x the number.  In an "-08" bearing the bore is 40 mm.  Below 10 mm, there is only one number, so 629 is a 9 mm bore, 608 is 8 mm bore and so on.

NR means a circlip groove and ring,

.

[Old Steve]

The old White SKF bearing catalog lived on my desk.

Yeah, I picked up a copy of the new FAG catalogue at the last Queensland Mining Exhibition.  Always a handy tool to have on the top of the filing cabinet.

I sold bearings way, way back.  We sold a sugar mill a big double row spherical roller bearing for a roller shaft every 3 or 4 months which had a 1 in 12 taper on the bore, bore must've been 400 mm or even larger, back in 1975 or 76 each one cost $2300 and they came one per pallet.  Anyway one day the chief engineer rang and said, "We can't keep buying bearings like this, there must be something wrong with your bearings.  They're fitting one today so come down and check it out."

I went down and watched the fitter fit this bearing, he slid it onto the shaft and slipped the tapered bush on the shaft, tightened the taper bush up by hand, tightened it up with a C-spanner, then reached for a 2 metre length of pipe!  I said, "WTF are you doing?"  He said, "I'm making sure the tapered sleeve doesn't slip on the shaft!"  I said, "Expletive deleted, it's an antifriction bearing!  It'll turn before the taper sleeve ever thinks of slipping, where's your feeler gauge?"

He had to go buy a feeler gauge and I showed him how to re-tighten the taper sleeve.  You do the sleeve up by hand and measure the internal clearance between the top roller and the outer case.  In this case when we measured the clearance after hand tightening it was say 0.30 mm (300 micron).  I showed him the technical tables and say there should have been 0.20 mm (200 micron) then we needed to close it up 0.10 mm (100 micron).  I calculated the taper of the sleeve and the pitch of the taper sleeve thread and he had to turn the taper sleeve nut by 120 degrees, I got him to mark the nut at 12 o'clock and the sleeve at 4 o'clock and to tighten the nut up with the C-spanner until the two marks matched.  He turned the bearing and remeasured the internal clearance a couple of times and it was spot on.  He'd been over tightening the bearing, the taper sleeve was actually expanding the inner race of the bearing and that's why they were only lasting 3 to 4 months.

He closed the housing up, put the roller back into service, and the company never bought another one of those bearings.

So bearings just aren't bearings!  there's a lot more to them than most people realise.  The only bearing you over load when setting up is a taper roller wheel bearing, and then only slightly.  The increase in operating temperature actually increases the internal clearance out to what it should be.

[West Aussie Glen]

Steve,
I guess that story came from one of the CSR Mills.
I did my cadetship with CSR in Mechanical Engineering but never worked in a sugar mill.

[johnnyYTED]

 
thanks 2Triky, I learnt of a few differences between the ST11 and ST13 rear wheel components.
I noted  there are only 4 prongs on the drive and only 4 cush rubbers, where ST11 has 5.
that bearing dont lQQk to good, lucky find before it caused ...something...
I hadnt really seen a 13 without panniers,,  thats lQQks different
also thanks everyone for the bearing edumacation lesson, good knowledge bits to know.

[2Triky]

Thanks to everybody who produced some input on this issue.

A stroke of luck today, make that two strokes.  I found myself driving past a CBC Bearing place, and I picked up a pair of new bearings.  I went for the double seal variety.  Bloody Honda wanted $28 per bearing.  However, after my outburst it came down to $20.  Guess how much they cost from CBC...........$21 for the pair .  Yep for the pair .  So Honda are making a killing.

Anyway, the second stroke of luck was I only got a 1/2 days work today.  So with new bearings in the skyrocket. I raced home and reassembled the whole shootin match.  Only took one hour all up, including refitting the tow bar, and test riding it up to 160 kph in my drive way (on the centre stand, yuk yuk).   No noises so all is good.

[Biggles]

and test riding it up to 160 kph in my drive way (on the centre stand, yuk yuk).   No noises so all is good.

 

You're a braver man than me.  I've had it up to 50 or so and the bit of vibration was enough to make me bail out. 
The thought of what would happen if it jumped off the stand at 160 indicated scares the living daylights out of me.

[Brock]

I do believe that there is also a single double width bearing available as well. I guess it would use rollers instead of balls...

[Brian]

I've seen similar 'surprises' including photos on here of an ST1100..... Never thought you find the same thing with the 13. Moisture shows no bias...

[2Triky]

Biggles, you might need a wheel balance.  I really didnt notice any vibration or bounce at all, it was smooth as a babies bum. I just flicked it through  a couple of gears and screwed its neck.  It was only when i glanced at the speedo is when i thought S...t?  Betta stop this now.

[Old Steve]

I do believe that there is also a single double width bearing available as well. I guess it would use rollers instead of balls...

Yeah Biggles,  there's a code mainly used to denote wider single row ball bearings, double row spherical roller bearings and single row cylindrical roller bearings, but there's also a series of rigid double row angular contact ball bearings..

double row spherical roller bearings, eg. a 22210 is the standard width for this type of bearing in the medium 'weight' series with a 50 mm bore, 90 mm OD, but slightly wider than a single row ball bearing at 23 mm wide.

single row cylindrical roller bearings, these have an alphabetical prefix to describe the bearing layout, ie. with double lips on the inner (N) or outer race (NU), double lips on the outer race and a sinlge lip on the outer race (NJ), or a number of other variations (NUP and NJ+HJ).  So NU210 would be the standard medium 'weight' series with a 50 mm bore, 90 mm OD and 20 mm wide - exactly the same dimensions as the 6210 single row ball bearing, the elegance of the bearing numbering system.  A wider single row cylindrical roller bearing would be a NU2210, 50 mm x 90 mm x 23 mm - the exact same size as the 22210 double row spherical roller bearing.

Rarer, but I have seen them, are wider single row ball bearings.  Here the number would be 62210 and it would have 50 mm bore, 90 mm OD and a 23 mm width instead of the standard 6210 width of 20 mm - the 62210 is the same size as the double row spherical roller bearings and the wide series of the single row cylindrical roller bearings.

Double row angular contact ball bearings have an opposed angular configuration to give higher axial loadings, and have dimensions wider than the other bearings.  The type indicator is '3' so a 3210 double row angular contact ball bearing has dimensions of 50 mm bore, 90 mm OD but 30.2 mm wide.  This is the type of bearing commonly used as rear wheel bearings in cars.  Can come in shielded or sealed as well.

As I said, bearings are just not bearings.

[Biggles]

Goodonya Old Steve.
You could recite that for after-dinner entertainment on the Rally Friday night.   

We'd be grinning and bearing...