OzSTOC
Honda ST1100 Section => Honda ST1100 General Questions => Topic started by: RubenCan on December 16, 2012, 06:51:22 PM
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hello People,
Don't know if this has been previously posted and if so, apologies in advance.
I just found this youtube film that details the process for checking and changing the shims.
ST1100 Valve Adjustment (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W_ACqNiYnaE#)
Hope this is of help to someone, I'll be looking at doing this in the next 12 months.
regards
Ruben :dred11
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A good video, also shows that you need to plan in advance so that you know what units you are working in
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I too have seen this video and just the other day thought I would check the valve clearance.
Ive taken my bike of the road for some well needed maintenance, fork oil change, carby sync and shims if needed.
Pulled a lot of tupper ware off plus rocker cover, right side and rotated crank to where exhaust cam at right spot, and thought I would start with 0.009in feeler as that was the smallest I had.
Checked all exhaust on RH side and at 0.009 in felt just a tad loose, so I thinks maybe .010 in which is with in spec.
So return with newer feelers and see if thicker one will go in so try .012in goes in between cam and lifter same with 0.014 and 0.018.
I did notice the thicker feelers came out sorta rounded whereas the 0.009in retained its flat shape, is it possible to push a thicker gauge between the cam and lifter.
Any guidance would be grateful.
Cheers
Kappy
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The feeler guage should go in easily and not be forced in. I haven't tried to force a bigger one in, bit it could be done I suppose, but it would take some effort. Clearances are normally smaller over time rather than bigger, so on the bigger side is often better.
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saaz
Thanks for that, I'll have another play on the weekend now that I know about clearance getting smaller. My first try was on exhaust and 9thou went easily so I figured maybe about 10 thou which is within spec.
When the thicker feeler went in I thought shit this can't be right.
Cheers
Kappy
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I had my valves clearances checked for the first time at 120,000 kms......still within spec which surprised me.
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Mine has done about 96,000k so could still be ok. :wht11
I think I need to re sync the carbies again, last time I used a home made vacuum gauge that was a bit iffy. :H
Does anyone know where I may be able borrow or hire a decent set up in WA. :thumbs
Cheers
Kappy
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The other day I checked all the clearances seems as thought the right bank are just on the minimum of 0.006 in for inlet and 0.009 in for exhaust, on the left the front 2 inlet were 0.005 in back 2 inlet 0.006 and the front 2 exhaust were 0.008 and 0.009 respectively and other 2, 0.009. So if I've measured correctly there is several that definitely need doing, so I may as well do the lot.
When doing the shims would it be advisable to take them to the high end ie inlet 0.007 and the exhaust 0.011 or middle of the road in which case I will only have a few to do??
On the thought of shims, can anyone recommend anywhere local (Perth) where I can get reasonably priced kits.
Here's one for the gurus several weeks before I pulled the STeed of the road I noticed she wasn't running as smoothly bit more noisier than normal, could that be the shims or the maybe the carbs needing syncing??
As I was pulling all the Tupperware off I notice clutch fluid down a bit, so I bled the system completely replacing with new fluid, gravity bleed.
On another note my front wheel has a little dent in it bit out of balance, (from a old lending experience, No details to boring :H) Is there anywhere in Perth where I can get it straightened once again for :thumbs$$ as I can get good 2nd hand ex UK including post for around $140 ..
Cheers
Kappy
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If you are going to do a few shims, may as well do as many as you can when the cams are out. Clearances should be set at the upper end as they always close up on the STs. That way you won't have to do the job for ages. The carb synch should be done after the valves have been adjusted. I have a shim kit but not much use to you over there.
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That was my thought as well, guess I really wont know what shims I'll need to I pull them out and measure what in there now, I I'll also need a micrometer to measure the old one, as I believe the thickness may not be on the old ones.
I can get a kit from eBay for around $80 in including postage is that the norm in Oz.
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Sounds about right. You can get replacement shims from precision shims, who ship very quickly. In doing three ST11s I ran out of the most popular size, as it seems most ST11s have the same size shims from the factory. The shim size will be printed (on the Honda shims) or etched on (hot cams and precision shims) the shim, and I have found no wear on them as they are under the bucket but always safer to double check with a micrometer.
The factory shims also come in smaller increments that you can't buy, but no big deal as most dealers don't have them either unless they took them out of a bike. It is a good idea while everything is out to write down which shim is where so you know what shim is needed next time.
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Thanks for that.
In your experience would a slight change in valve clearance have an impact on the sound of the engine, I mean still seems to have the same power, just not as sweet and smooth as she was, or is there maybe something else.
Cheers
Kappy
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I haven't really noticed major changes in the way the engine feels or behaves, as the ST11 is relatively robust in terms of putting up with things not being quite right, and doing the valves along with things like a carb synch seem to improve things. Carb synch is usually the main element of getting the engine sounding smooth again, and sometimes putting some carb cleaner or similar in for a while seems to clean things out. But mine has done 202,000kms so I probably forget what a newer ST11 sounds like, but apart from some noises at idle it still goes and sounds great, no real change in the last 130,00kms or so. Famous last words....
Thanks for that.
In your experience would a slight change in valve clearance have an impact on the sound of the engine, I mean still seems to have the same power, just not as sweet and smooth as she was, or is there maybe something else.
Cheers
Kappy
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I rang a honda dealer in Perth regarding shims for AnaSTasia, they don't sell kits, only individual shims at $8.90 each :well.
16 x $8.90 ouch :cuss I told the guy I only wanted some parts, didn't want to become a major shareholder. o:)
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Arvo Kappy et al...
Seems to me that you are perhaps over thinking this a tad. From what l've read your bike's tappets are within the tolerances, so how about just getting on with riding and enjoying it and revisit the tappets in another 10-12Ks?
However if you wish to pursue the clearance...as the valve / seat wears this decreases the gap were you put feeler gauge. So when this gap in less than the lower recommended tolerance, simply remove the shim that is already insitu and using a good oil-stone and a drop of oil, lap the shim using a figure 8 motion, reinsert the shim and re-measure. Repeat procedure until desired gap is reached...Simple. :wink1
Really, the only time you should have to play about with shim thickness varieties and kits is when the valves / seats have been re-seated.
Just a thought.
Ciao, the can :-)
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That's one way to approach the issue (I would just check that another shim might do the job from another valve before adjusting the shim thickness).
Just make sure you have a decent micrometer and write down what adjustment has been made to which shim, as what is printed on the shim no longer applies (after years of adjusting an over bucket shim bike, I always measure shims as a matter of course just to be sure as they tended to wear a bit). I have had to replace a few shims over the last 120,000kms or so, and all have been due to tighter than spec tolerances.
I was able to just swap shims with a local Honda dealer at no cost, but as I was at work at the time I bought a shim kit so I could do the valves when I had the time (ie shop closed)
My valves have only been reseated due to use :) Which reminds me that the valves are due to be checked yet again as I did them in January and that was 28,000kms ago. This 25,600 valve check interval comes up far too often...
Arvo Kappy et al...
Seems to me that you are perhaps over thinking this a tad. From what l've read your bike's tappets are within the tolerances, so how about just getting on with riding and enjoying it and revisit the tappets in another 10-12Ks?
However if you wish to pursue the clearance...as the valve / seat wears this decreases the gap were you put feeler gauge. So when this gap in less than the lower recommended tolerance, simply remove the shim that is already insitu and using a good oil-stone and a drop of oil, lap the shim using a figure 8 motion, reinsert the shim and re-measure. Repeat procedure until desired gap is reached...Simple. :wink1
Really, the only time you should have to play about with shim thickness varieties and kits is when the valves / seats have been re-seated.
Just a thought.
Ciao, the can :-)
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Thanks for the advice guys much appreciated.
There is 2 inlet valves that are on 0.005in and the rest are 0.006in most of the exhaust are on 0.009in and 1 exhaust on 0.008 interesting that valve corresponds to the one the inlet that is 0.005in. My thoughts were if I'm doing any I may as well do the lot??? :think1
What are the repercussions on doing another 10,000ks with a valve that is under the tolerance?
I have all the Tupperware off and plan to go over the whole bike. I am going to renew the front forks fluid.
My front wheel has a dent in it from an old episode, so the wheel is coming off and I'm taking it somewhere to get it straightened,new bearings just because and new rotors and pads. Then another new tyre as this one has worn oddly maybe out of balance Or whatever.
Before I pulled her of the road she was not as sweet sounding as she used to be and the handling had changed especially on left handers.
End of ramble for now.
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While apart I would just do them, as much of the effort is just getting to them. Next check could be left for another 50,000kms or so.
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Interesting day.
I ring a large dealership re shim kits, the parts lady rings back say you can't shim kits for ST's mmm I say.
I then ring a well know tyre fitter and MC accessory establishment in Perth, the guys that answers say ST's don't have to have shims replaced "I've worked on heaps with more than 200,000 ks on the clock and they are all still good, my reply That's interesting cos I have an ST that needs some done, he advises he can do shims on an exchange basis. How much I ask he says $12.90 exchange :cuss, I tell him the Genuine Honda is $8.90 outright.
So I hang up. :KissBlow
I then another shop in East Vic Park the guys couldn't be more helpful. He's gonna ring around.
As I've got just everything off I may as well do the lot. So I see most kits come with 3 each of every size ranging from x to Y, so what are the chances of every shim currently fitted being the exact same size, is that possible. Are the the same size ex factory???
Cheers
Kappy
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Mornin' John, Kappy et al...
Hear what you say but have to ask the question. What if you had done nought about replacing shims?
Why l ask this is simple. Having had the luxuary of owning one 1100 from new l have kept a written record of all the clearance checks since new. Yes, the values decreased as time went on but since about 120k they have not changed at all. Last checked at 160k.
OK that was bike 1, onto bike 2. As you know this bike had been ridden very hard and had worked very hard befofe Laure got it for me. Initially, l didn't bother with even looking at the tappets. However, after changing the timing belt at 152k and finding it was sooo stretched it should have been replaced at 100k and the subsequent top end rattle due to cam gear / shaft / allen key excess wear noise, courtesy of the new belt, it got me thinking.
So when l had the bike in Melboure a couple of years back l decided maybe best to run the feelers over it. And to my surprise, yes ALL clearances were on tight side, but still within tolerance. Haven't bothered to check since as the bike is back north enjoying some sunshine (as is the owner).
So l rationalise that as this bike like all x police ST's had a thrashing and after 165K's when l finally checked the tappets and found them low, but with tolerance, l will presume the 'pattern' l have seen in bike one will repeat with bike two. That is, 'settle' at the lower clearane end.
Sorry if some spelling etc above is dodgey, but l am writing this diatribe using my 60 yo thumb on an iphone while having a lie-in and an earl grey before getting this retired ar$3 out of bed & into the Qld sunshine ;-)
Ciao, the can :-)
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I did the timing belt (after Middleton Rally) just over 100K kilometres on the clock, on a 1994 ST1100.
Checked the valves and got the following:-
Intake - 7 at .006 and 1 at .005 (spec's .005-.007in)
Exhaust - 7 at .010 and 1 at .011 (spec's .009-.011in)
Will check them at 150K.
Cheers
Dave
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I have checked mine 3 times. Each time at least one shim needed doing, but as Dick says the ones that I did early on have settled down and are virtually unchanged. All the valves are now in the middle of the range.
I only ran out of a size when I also did another ST11 that must have still had all the factory shims in it. There will be some half sizes from the factory.
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A lot of very interesting and informative comments.
I have no idea how long things have been the way they are, but I plan to do all of them while every thing is in bits, then when I check again down the track I'll have a better idea of how things are. Being an Ex Cop bike who knows whether they've been done at all.
I'll probably check the the timing belt at the same time.
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I wouldn't mind some thoughts on measuring the existing shims when I get them out.
I have a good set of quality Digital Vernier Caliper, which reads down to 0.00mm is this accurate enough or is a micrometer a better option?
Thanks for your patience.
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The shims will have a marking for the size. Under bucket shims don't usually wear. I use a digital vernier gauge, but as I have done mine a few times and use new shims I know that someone has not ground down a shim from its marked size. just to double check
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If you do decide to sand down the shims, do it on the side that has the markings so that next time you will know it has been thinned.
:bl11
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My shim kit arrived the other day and today I decided I was reading for action.
I had noted all my clearance measurements and was was in the process of lining up the T1 mark for the right bank, my instructional video mentioned taking off timing belt inspection cover and double checking that the index mark and the index line married up.
Fortunate I did that as I discover the T1 mark was 180 degrees out, so I turned over 180 and discovered when T1 mark were lined up the index mark and the index weren't quite on maybe 1/2 mm.
Anyway I'm not sure whether that really make that big a difference as far as changing shims, correct me if I'm wrong, but maybe it means timing belt has stretched a little.
Can anyone advise of whether there is an acceptable level of stretched.
As I was unsure I stopped and went for coffee and will re assess tomorrow, maybe with some new found posted wisdom.
Cheers
Kappy
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Just looking at the diagram in the manual it looks like the T1 Mark is between a T and an F with another mark between the F and a 1.
I was a little concerned about the alignment when I replaced my timing belt because to me it seemed a little way out but all the marks were lined up when the new belt went in and the tension adjusted. It must be ok since it's running ok.
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Alan I think the T1 mark align the crank for the right bank and T4 aligns the crank for the left bank. The F1 & F4 maybe so many degrees past TDC???? :think1
The other marks (index line and index mark) are relative to the timing belt driven pulley this mark is, on double checking is maybe 2 mm off with the crank in the correct position.
So maybe the belt has stretched and I may need to replace trimming belt.
My concern was what effect would the timing mark being that much out have on the actual running and would that impact on the replacing of the shims?????
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Kappy, I don't think the marks being that far apart would be noticeable to the engine performance. Would not effect the shin clearance. As to belt, how many K's on the engine or old belt?
:bl11
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The marks are never perfectly aligned. You can turn it a bit either side of the mark and all the cam marking still pretty well line up. I did a belt on one bike at around 180,000kms and it seemed ok, just a bit stiffer than the new one.
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Steveo
2000 model with 97,000, from what I can see of the belt from the right side looks ok.
I didn't think that difference would impact doing the shims as most line up as per manual.
Did the right side didn't change the inlet shims as they were 6 thou but at least I have recorded what shims are in there for the future.
Actually after I checked and double checked my maths, I changed the exhaust shims now the clearance in 10 thou.
All the original shims ranged from 2.0mm--- 2.05mm with a couple 2.02mm so I guess they may be from factory????.
So all torqued up but had to leave the left side for another day.
I'll address the timing belt issue after I've done the shims.
May end up dropping radiator as the some small hoses that are quite hard, so may as well do that while in pieces.
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2.025 ones are from the factory. Very hard to buy them, but sometimes you can get the half size ones from a Honda dealer if they have taken them out of a bike during servicing. I used to be able to swap shims for free with one dealer, but they left town. Those size shims are common in the ST1100s I have checked.
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Just updating progress, well not good.
Over the weekend I tackled the left side re took readings and disassembled cams etc.
Did all the sums and replaced shims all bar 3 as ok. Had to sand one down as didn't have the correct size in kit.
Re assembled and then torqueing down and :cuss snapped a cam holder bolt, not concentrating enough, shit :||||.
So has anyone had any experience with an eaziout that small or is a case of taking the head off :||||
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Try a tool shop, and get a set of a reverse drill bit and extractor. Should work. Sometimes just using the reverse drill bit will do the trick, as the bolt just comes out. I got mine at a fastener speciality store.
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It ain't a very big stud, can you get 3 mm reverse drill bits???
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The ones I have are from this range
http://www.bordo.com.au/_productGroup.php?catGroupId=454 (http://www.bordo.com.au/_productGroup.php?catGroupId=454) The No.2 I have would do a cam bolt, No.1 also
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I bought a left hand twist set from 1/16th to 1/2 inch from local tool shop for $50.00. The secret is to drill a small hole about 3mm deep, (eg 2mm dia) then 'bite' into it with a 4mm drill and they will usually come out.
:bl11
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Thanks guys for the valuable advise, went a brought and N01 & No 2 extractor set.
Will tackle in a week or so as drive out to Broome tonight,
I tackle this job when fresh and in correct mind set as I figrue you only get one chance at this.
By the tone of the replies I may not be the 1st to have done this.
BTW if someone had told me to get a left hand drill bit I may have said :H :nahnah :butt :rofl
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Just a quick update.
Finally got a decent centre punch, the 2 I got and returned to Bunnings were useless, one the point broke off and the other the point was too soft. As I was punching mark in broken stud I thought I noticed move.
Drilled into broken stud with 2mm bit about 6mm then got the No 2 easiout and screw it in and once strted the stud started coming out, so finished job with my fingers :thumbsup so how good was that :runyay.
Now just gotta get a new stud.
Cheers
Kappy
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...... Now just gotta get a new stud.
Oh, the opportunities for smart alec replies .......... :law
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Quite often just the drilling loosens it enough, but good to have the extractor backup. Those extractor kits will come in handy sometime in the future, if not for you but someone else. A good investment :thumbsup
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just thought I would keep this post open :whistle
Have been working on the STead after we did Pezzz,s and I was tempted to look at the valve clearance. I know these motors are bullet proof but it surprised me to find all within specs except the two rear inlets (rear inlet on 3 and 4) which were 0.1mm wide. ie clearance is 0.3mm. tempted to put covers on and forget. Motor has been running fine. Looking at other parts in the motor it looks as if this has come from the factory like this. Decided to do the right thing and put right. Looking at shim kits but want to do FarRide in two weeks so ebay is out. Can do each side one night , get shim next day then put in and do other side. Three days in all assuming shims available. So the main question without being anal but have done blueprinted engines is what is the acceptable difference in valve clearance between pairs and between cylinders. All clearances will be wide from centre. The STead has done about 140000kms has been running nicely and we have changed timing belt, all coolant hoses, New tapered head stem bearings and headlight shims. I have cleaned out clutch fluid but have now no clutch so will look at that tomorrow night. All advice accepted.
:wht11
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And you wont know what shims you need until you pull the old ones out and see what size they are...
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And you wont know what shims you need until you pull the old ones out and see what size they are...
Exactly
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I have always set them close to the maximum, as they always close up over time. If the cams come out, worth writing down clearances and shims in all the other cylinders for next time preparation.
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I used this:-
http://www.st-owners.com/forums/showthread.php?75926-ST1100-Valve-Clearance-Worksheet (http://www.st-owners.com/forums/showthread.php?75926-ST1100-Valve-Clearance-Worksheet)
Acknowledgement to the ST-Owners.com site, great info over there as well as here :thumb
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Cheers guys :grin
I redid all clearances last night and they come up within tolerance except the two I mentioned which were not as bad. All wider than spec so I decided to leave them as is. :thumbs
So I am waiting for the next drama to occur :OldMan
:wht11