Author Topic: Driving an electric car from Sydney to Melbourne / the Downsides of EVs  (Read 2348 times)

Online Skip

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Re: Driving an electric car from Sydney to Melbourne
« Reply #50 on: February 13, 2024, 07:21:44 PM »
Here ya go ruSTynutz. My thoughts are these. If you want an EV, knock yourself out. Just don't think you are 'saving the planet' by having one. Go hard. Have fun. Have you ever seen the amount of ships criss-crossing the globe transferring crap from one side to another? Ships are one of the most inefficient and polluting forms of transport. Why aren't the "Greenies" protesting about world trade? And aircraft? Another issue.
Tyre wear? Regardless of whether it is an EV or not, worn tyres must be putting 1000's of tons of rubber 'powder' into the waterways etc? EV's aren't immuned to tyre wear as far as I'm aware. An EV is just an automobile with an empty fuel tank. Don't pretend ALL recharge stations are fueled from 'renewables'. Within our little old town of Brisbane and SE Qld, there are hundreds of government owned facilities that have a diesel generator present, and run 24/7, because there is not enough power in the grid to run the facility. FACT. And the government want US to go all 'green and fuzzy" and drive EV's. It is an absolute joke. As I said, if you want one, and can afford one, then enjoy. We now live in a strata unit style living and EV chargers are not an option in our building as there is not enough energy in the grid to allow us to upgrade the supply to our complex. Fact. EV's, solar panels and wind turbines are NOT the answer to an energy crisis. Just sayin'.   
« Last Edit: February 19, 2024, 10:38:58 AM by Skip »
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Re: Driving an electric car from Sydney to Melbourne
« Reply #51 on: February 13, 2024, 08:34:48 PM »
Here's more grist for everyone's mill.  EVs are heavier than ICE powered vehicles.
Someone had to sacrifice two very expensive vehicles for this test.  And yes, I know, crashworthiness costs heaps regardless of vehicle.
BTW, I suspect the only m/cs crash tested would be Goldwings with airbags.
On every other bike you do your own crash worthiness testing.   >:()

https://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2024/feb/12/experts-warn-electric-vehicle-weight-threatens-roa/

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Re: Driving an electric car from Sydney to Melbourne
« Reply #52 on: February 15, 2024, 08:53:28 PM »
Here ya go ruSTynutz. My thoughts are these. If you want an EV, knock yourself out. Just don't think you are 'saving the planet' by having one. Go hard. Have fun. Have you ever seen the amount of ships criss-crossing the globe transferring crap from one side to another? Ships are one of the most inefficient and polluting forms of transport. Why aren't the "Greenies" protesting about world trade? And aircraft? Another issue.
Tyre wear? Regardless of whether it is an EV or not, worn tyres must be putting 1000's of tons of rubber 'powder' into the waterways etc? EV's aren't immuned to tyre wear as far as I'm aware. An EV is just an automobile with an empty fuel tank. Don't pretend ALL recharge stations are fueled from 'renewables'. Within out little old town of Brisbane and SE Qld, there are hundreds of government owned facilities that have a diesel generator present, and run 24/7, because there is not enough power in the grid to run the facility. FACT. And the government want US to go all 'green and fuzzy" and drive EV's. It is an absolute joke. As I said, if you want one, and can afford one, then enjoy. We now live in a strata unit style living and EV chargers are not an option in our building as there is not enough energy in the grid to allow us to upgrade the supply to our complex. Fact. EV's, solar panels and wind turbines are NOT the answer to an energy crisis. Just sayin'.

I must say I agree pretty much one hundred percent with what you've said, Skip!  :clap
Sorry for the late response, it was just too hard trying to type a reply on my mobile phone...
Now that we've had power restored here in Victoria I'm back on my PC!  :runyay

Here's more grist for everyone's mill.  EVs are heavier than ICE powered vehicles.
Someone had to sacrifice two very expensive vehicles for this test.  And yes, I know, crashworthiness costs heaps regardless of vehicle.
BTW, I suspect the only m/cs crash tested would be Goldwings with airbags.
On every other bike you do your own crash worthiness testing.   >:()

https://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2024/feb/12/experts-warn-electric-vehicle-weight-threatens-roa/

Thanks for the link, Bill...very interesting reading!  :thumbs

Speaking of motorcycle crashes, did you know electric scooter fatalities get lumped in with motorcycle fatalities? Well, they do here in Victoria & NSW anyhow...  :well

https://www.aaa.asn.au/newsroom/data-failings-prevent-e-scooter-safety-analysis/


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Re: Driving an electric car from Sydney to Melbourne
« Reply #53 on: February 16, 2024, 10:04:28 AM »
EVs are heavier than ICE powered vehicles

ICE vehicles are getting heavier also, loaded down with all the "you beaut" tech to make vehicles safer...
Even back when I bought my little 2010 Hyundai i30 diesel (which has bugger-all tech compared to more modern cars) I was surprised it weighed as much as a 6-cylinder 1973 XB Ford Falcon.


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Re: Driving an electric car from Sydney to Melbourne / the Downsides of EVs
« Reply #54 on: February 21, 2024, 03:18:25 PM »
Just had to post this one:   :popcorn

Firefighting in Ontario just got greener with the arrival of its first electric fire truck

https://www.nationalobserver.com/2024/01/25/news/firefighting-ontario-just-got-greener-first-electric-fire-truck

Quote
According to the Rosenbauer Group, the new electric fire truck has a run time of nearly two hours of driving on battery power, enabling it to respond to multiple emergencies on a single charge

And just to make the fire truck even greener, a look at the specs tells me the trucks have an "Auxiliary Power Backup System, a 3.0 Liter 300HP 6 Cylinder BMW Clean Diesel Engine...




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Offline cravenhaven

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Re: Driving an electric car from Sydney to Melbourne / the Downsides of EVs
« Reply #55 on: February 22, 2024, 09:20:59 AM »
Here ya go ruSTynutz. My thoughts are these. If you want an EV, knock yourself out. Just don't think you are 'saving the planet' by having one. Go hard. Have fun. Have you ever seen the amount of ships criss-crossing the globe transferring crap from one side to another? Ships are one of the most inefficient and polluting forms of transport. Why aren't the "Greenies" protesting about world trade? And aircraft? Another issue.
Tyre wear? Regardless of whether it is an EV or not, worn tyres must be putting 1000's of tons of rubber 'powder' into the waterways etc? EV's aren't immuned to tyre wear as far as I'm aware. An EV is just an automobile with an empty fuel tank. Don't pretend ALL recharge stations are fueled from 'renewables'. Within our little old town of Brisbane and SE Qld, there are hundreds of government owned facilities that have a diesel generator present, and run 24/7, because there is not enough power in the grid to run the facility. FACT. And the government want US to go all 'green and fuzzy" and drive EV's. It is an absolute joke. As I said, if you want one, and can afford one, then enjoy. We now live in a strata unit style living and EV chargers are not an option in our building as there is not enough energy in the grid to allow us to upgrade the supply to our complex. Fact. EV's, solar panels and wind turbines are NOT the answer to an energy crisis. Just sayin'.   

I think there's already moves afoot for shipping, such as Hydrogen, some trials with sails etc, but it will take a loooong time before there are any significant advances in pollution reduction from that industry.
Everyone likes to make big statements about EV's being heavier than ICE equivalents. It is true, but only by 10-15%, and as Rusty says, ICE vehicles have increased in weight over the years as well. I've "accidentally" ended up in a parking building a couple of times with my Ranger and old Patrol and have to say that I would not willingly take one into a parking building ever.
Yeah! tyres wear out, same/same, although there is a fair amount of research going into making tyres specifically for EV's so maybe reduced wear might come out of that too. The bit you didnt bother mentioning was the almost complete lack of brake pad wear (which also ends up in our waterways), never mind the manufacturing and disposal waste. Which bring me to Oil, you have to change your oi every 10/20000km in an ICE, but pretty much never in an EV, again, no waste.

And of course the old "coal powered EV" rhetoric. Even though most states in Australia have a greater than 30% generation by renewables now (NSW is over 60% during the day), and its increasing. Is oil/petrol/diesel becoming renewable?. The odd charger around the place running off a diesel generator (would be interested to know where these are?) are thoroughly abnormal as you probably know, and compare that to all the outback roadhouses running permanently on diesel generators to supply petrol and diesel.
 

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Re: Driving an electric car from Sydney to Melbourne / the Downsides of EVs
« Reply #56 on: February 23, 2024, 12:06:57 AM »
Which bring me to Oil, you have to change your oi every 10/20000km in an ICE, but pretty much never in an EV, again, no waste.

Although in saying that, oil can be recycled...

Is oil/petrol/diesel becoming renewable?.

As far as petrol/diesel goes, the answer is yes.
MotoGP will be using a minimum of 40% synthetic fuel in all the MotoGP classes from this year and by 2027 all MotoGP classes will be using 100% non-fossil fuel...


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Offline cravenhaven

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Re: Driving an electric car from Sydney to Melbourne / the Downsides of EVs
« Reply #57 on: February 23, 2024, 10:58:21 AM »


Although in saying that, oil can be recycled...

As far as petrol/diesel goes, the answer is yes.
MotoGP will be using a minimum of 40% synthetic fuel in all the MotoGP classes from this year and by 2027 all MotoGP classes will be using 100% non-fossil fuel...

I had completely forgotten about oil being recycled, but upon a bit of investigation found that it is not as rosy as one might believe. It seems that in Australia around 60% of lubricating oils are recycled back to lubricating oil funded at a rate of about 60% by the govt (partially funded by a levy on motor oils that we pay). Other uses are possible, but the lack of government funding precludes their production. In addition, there are only a few oil recycling plants in Australia so collection and transportation of used oil as well as the chemical and energy resources used in reprocessing the oil are a significant (but largely ignored) environmental cost.

Synthetic fuel could be interesting if it is what they say it is. But given that Hydrogen is one of the inputs, and most hydrogen is made from fossil fuels then its hardly renewable. Of course Hydrogen can be produced with green energy, but in either case its ridiculously energy intensive. So for Synthetic fuel you have energy intensive hydrogen mixed with either coal or LPG gas or biogas (ie food stock turned into fuel), and then through another ridiculously energy intensive process you produce synthetic fuel. Stuff I've read shows around 40% energy efficiency just to get to the fuel stage, then you burn it in an ICE engine to produce power in a 20% efficient process!!. I dont think our grid can handle producing this stuff.
 

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Re: Driving an electric car from Sydney to Melbourne / the Downsides of EVs
« Reply #58 on: February 23, 2024, 12:16:31 PM »
I had completely forgotten about oil being recycled, but upon a bit of investigation found that it is not as rosy as one might believe. It seems that in Australia around 60% of lubricating oils are recycled back to lubricating oil funded at a rate of about 60% by the govt (partially funded by a levy on motor oils that we pay). Other uses are possible, but the lack of government funding precludes their production. In addition, there are only a few oil recycling plants in Australia so collection and transportation of used oil as well as the chemical and energy resources used in reprocessing the oil are a significant (but largely ignored) environmental cost.

I guess it's a bit like recycling lithium batteries, with something like 10 percent of them being recycled (in Australia), the rest being either stored, shipped overseas or ending up in land fill...

Synthetic fuel could be interesting if it is what they say it is. But given that Hydrogen is one of the inputs, and most hydrogen is made from fossil fuels then its hardly renewable. Of course Hydrogen can be produced with green energy, but in either case its ridiculously energy intensive. So for Synthetic fuel you have energy intensive hydrogen mixed with either coal or LPG gas or biogas (ie food stock turned into fuel), and then through another ridiculously energy intensive process you produce synthetic fuel. Stuff I've read shows around 40% energy efficiency just to get to the fuel stage, then you burn it in an ICE engine to produce power in a 20% efficient process!!.

Obviously there's a long way to go before synthetic fuel becomes a realistic proposition but who knows what advances will happen down the track but one obvious advantage of synthetic fuel is that it can be used in current ICE vehicles.

I dont think our grid can handle producing this stuff.

Can our grids handle a mass uptake of EVs?


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Re: Driving an electric car from Sydney to Melbourne / the Downsides of EVs
« Reply #59 on: March 10, 2024, 03:00:10 PM »
A taste of things to come for Oz? :popcorn


Quote
After our recent EV v Petrol road trip, we wanted to give driving an electric vehicle another shot.
This time we rented a Rivian R1S in the United States to see what DC fast charging, off-street AC charging and EV charging in a parking structure would be like.
We didn't expect it to end the way it did...

https://youtu.be/5MXzxHc0dWo?si=cL9NFqCFzby7EjD0


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Re: Driving an electric car from Sydney to Melbourne / the Downsides of EVs
« Reply #60 on: March 10, 2024, 06:28:23 PM »
:popcorn
Here's more grist for everyone's mill.  EVs are heavier than ICE powered vehicles.
Someone had to sacrifice two very expensive vehicles for this test.  And yes, I know, crashworthiness costs heaps regardless of vehicle.
BTW, I suspect the only m/cs crash tested would be Goldwings with airbags.
On every other bike you do your own crash worthiness testing.   >:()

https://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2024/feb/12/experts-warn-electric-vehicle-weight-threatens-roa/
The Toyota Hilux is over 2 tonne, my Teska Y is 1.8 tonne, the Nissan Leaf is under 1.5 tonne.

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Re: Driving an electric car from Sydney to Melbourne / the Downsides of EVs
« Reply #61 on: March 10, 2024, 08:37:13 PM »
The Toyota Hilux is over 2 tonne, my Teska Y is 1.8 tonne, the Nissan Leaf is under 1.5 tonne.

Whichever way you look at it though, currently an EV is still heavier than an equivalent sized ICE vehicle...


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Re: Driving an electric car from Sydney to Melbourne / the Downsides of EVs
« Reply #62 on: March 10, 2024, 10:45:50 PM »
Ah, but the lightness of the angel feathers in using an EV discounts any extra physical weight.
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Re: Driving an electric car from Sydney to Melbourne / the Downsides of EVs
« Reply #63 on: March 10, 2024, 11:39:32 PM »
And here's me thinking it was all the hot air being emitted...  :whistle :p


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Re: Driving an electric car from Sydney to Melbourne / the Downsides of EVs
« Reply #64 on: March 11, 2024, 04:03:20 AM »
The Toyota Hilux is over 2 tonne, my Teska Y is 1.8 tonne, the Nissan Leaf is under 1.5 tonne.

Whichever way you look at it though, currently an EV is still heavier than an equivalent sized ICE vehicle...
It's just another furphy spread by the oil industry.

M Tiguan Diesel is the same size and 200 kg heavier. The engine, gearbox, transfer case, propshafts, front and rear differentials, all combined, are heavier than a battery and electric motor. The Tiguan is as tall,as wide, and just 4 to 5 cm shorter.

They have to resort to pushing 'negatives', including BS, which is all they have because they can't push positives of ICE.

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Re: Driving an electric car from Sydney to Melbourne / the Downsides of EVs
« Reply #65 on: March 11, 2024, 04:08:43 AM »
I'm driving a Ford Mustang Mach-E in NZ this week.

Not quite as nice as our Tesla, but it's still very beautiful to drive.

Today, we are driving from Waiuku to Napier, and we're spoiled for choice on where to charge. Tesla, ChargeNet, OneLoop, Z Ev, and BP Charge.



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Re: Driving an electric car from Sydney to Melbourne / the Downsides of EVs
« Reply #66 on: March 11, 2024, 09:55:14 AM »
It's just another furphy spread by the oil industry.

M Tiguan Diesel is the same size and 200 kg heavier. The engine, gearbox, transfer case, propshafts, front and rear differentials, all combined, are heavier than a battery and electric motor. The Tiguan is as tall,as wide, and just 4 to 5 cm shorter.

So, you're comparing an AWD Tiguan to a 2WD Tesla? Hardly a fair comparison!
Even so, a quick look at the specifications of both says the Tiguan still weighs less...


They have to resort to pushing 'negatives', including BS, which is all they have because they can't push positives of ICE.

Perhaps these "negatives" are actually fact?  :whistle


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Re: Driving an electric car from Sydney to Melbourne / the Downsides of EVs
« Reply #67 on: March 11, 2024, 11:53:27 AM »
My experience is that they aren't negatives.

Both the Tesla and the Tiguan are called SUVs, so a fair comparison. The Tesla has more storage space.

I've had both over the local tip weighbridge empty....

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Re: Driving an electric car from Sydney to Melbourne / the Downsides of EVs
« Reply #68 on: March 11, 2024, 12:57:38 PM »
My experience is that they aren't negatives.

That's great, but I'm pretty sure for most people it would be very hard to see the price difference between an ICE vehicle and an equivalent sized EV as anything other than a negative...


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Re: Driving an electric car from Sydney to Melbourne / the Downsides of EVs
« Reply #70 on: March 12, 2024, 01:51:55 PM »
I’ll just drop this here!

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2024-03-11/electric-car-sales-in-australia-outer-suburbs-overtake-city/103542014?utm_campaign=abc_news_web&utm_content=link&utm_medium=content_shared&utm_source=abc_news_web

Makes sense as EVs are more suited to that environment than they are out in the sticks...

Quote
"So although the initial cost of buying an electric car is higher than a petrol car, the running costs are significantly lower."

I would say that the initial costs of buying an EV is significantly higher...
For example, a basic MG ZS costs over $21,000 more than the same model ICE MG.
To put that in perspective, that's more than double the price of the basic ICE MG!

Another example is the Hyundai Kona EV, that will cost you nearly $23,000 over the cost of a basic Kona...a lot of money in anyone's language.
Do I need to point out that you could buy a hell of a lot of fuel with those savings?

Regarding running costs, I noticed there's no mention whatsoever in that article that EVs usually cost more to insure (and why would they when they are obviously talking up EVs  :whistle)

As an example, I got quotes from Budget Direct for a 2024 Tesla Y rear drive model and a 2024 top of the line Kia Sportage Diesel and there was a massive price difference.
Bear in mind I used the exact same location/excess/age etc etc...
The difference between the two was a whopping $2,000+ per year...more than enough to pay for servicing of the Sportage and quite a bit of fuel as well!  :o



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Re: Driving an electric car from Sydney to Melbourne / the Downsides of EVs
« Reply #71 on: March 14, 2024, 10:56:30 AM »
$23000 = 10 years of fuel, but add in extra maintenance required on an ICE, especially diesel, and it would probably drop several years, so maybe 5-7 years payback.
I've seen many posts about extraordinary insurance premium hikes for EV's so I guess it must be true, but in my own case the premium for my Tesla is about 20% more than my Ranger, and has been since I bought them 4 years ago.
 
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Re: Driving an electric car from Sydney to Melbourne / the Downsides of EVs
« Reply #72 on: March 14, 2024, 07:43:43 PM »
I've seen many posts about extraordinary insurance premium hikes for EV's so I guess it must be true, but in my own case the premium for my Tesla is about 20% more than my Ranger, and has been since I bought them 4 years ago.
I must admit I was shocked at the difference in the premiums from Budget Direct.
The quotes I got a while back from AAMI were a bit more reasonable with, I think, a $500 or $600 difference.


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Re: Driving an electric car from Sydney to Melbourne / the Downsides of EVs
« Reply #73 on: March 22, 2024, 08:56:37 PM »
Public EV charging is a DISASTER (and always will be)

https://youtu.be/56Wpzw--U50?si=JquP7RNaEm5TnqiO


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Re: Driving an electric car from Sydney to Melbourne / the Downsides of EVs
« Reply #74 on: March 28, 2024, 08:42:16 PM »
Happy Easter! I hope all you EV owners have fun on your Easter travels!  :whistle

Electric car owners warned of charging wait times this Easter

With more people hitting the road this Easter, electric car owners are being warned of queues at charging stations.
The Easter long weekend typically brings an influx of people to the nation's roads, and electric car owners are being cautioned to plan ahead to avoid spending their road trip queuing for chargers.
As is the case with petrol stations, electric charging facilities will also see extended usage.

EV charging providers such as Evie, which has over 200 charging stations around Australia, have predicted that over 10,000 EV drivers will use their network over the long Easter weekend. This comes after Evie reported that 8000 unique users charged up at their stations over Christmas.

Obviously, with this many electric cars on the road, there will be some wait times on the chargers in heavily populated areas. Bernhard Conoplia, Head of Public Charging Business for Evie, says that it pays to plan ahead before heading out.

Click the link to continue reading: https://www.drive.com.au/caradvice/electric-car-charger-wait-times-australia/

I particularly liked the bit on "Can you get fined for hogging a charger"  :popcorn


Quote
As is the case with petrol stations, electric charging facilities will also see extended usage.

Yeah right, as if the waiting times are gonna be anywhere near as long as waiting for an EV to be charged...  :rofl


        2005 Honda ST1300A