Author Topic: Intermittent starting problem has become permanent...  (Read 8964 times)

Offline SteveR

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 298
  • Thanked: 61 times
Intermittent starting problem has become permanent...
« on: December 14, 2015, 12:56:19 PM »
G'day guys,

Well, after staying up all hours sorting a few little bits on the bike, I still ended up missing last weekends RTE because an intermittent starting problem, which was slowly getting worse, seems to have settled into permanency... The bike was having this issue before I bought it, but the previous owner got it sorted at a local bike mechanic before I took possession.  It took a couple weeks before symptoms started showing again and it has slowly gotten worse.

Basically, the issue is that when I hit start, I can hear, and feel the starter relay click, but nothing happens.  The lights, dash lights etc all function as normal when ignition is on, lights cut out as they should when I hit start, but nothing else happens.

In cleaning up the terminals around the starter relay I thought the red plug didn't look too sturdy, but I only realised how bad it was when I saw Alans post http://ozstoc.com/index.php?topic=5948.0, mine is almost completely broken away inside, with the front two connectors floating free (ie, no plastic housing separating them).  So, I'm presuming this is my problem... Any other insights are more than welcome though! 

I guess ultimately I'll do a mod to bypass the relay and feed power directly to the ignition, but right now, I just want to get it running as quickly as possible, I've got a couple weeks off over Christmas and had planned to visit family through Vic & SA, so it goes without saying I'd rather be spending my Christmas break riding than spannering!!!

My local Honda dealer seems to have a hard time getting parts for the ST, would anyone happen to have one of these connectors laying around spare that I could purchase?  ...that is, of course, all presuming this is the problem...

...any gurus around the Geelong area able to give me a hand tracking this problem down if I get stuck?

Thanks guys!!!

"Not all those who wander are lost"
 

Offline STroppy

  • STroppy (Terry - the name on the TeeShirt)
  • RTE Coordinator
  • Legendary "1000 Club" Member
  • *
  • Posts: 1860
  • Thanked: 736 times
  • CountryMember! Mob 0412499625
Re: Intermittent starting problem has become permanent...
« Reply #1 on: December 14, 2015, 05:20:16 PM »
Might be time for a new battery . . . Use jumper leads from your car to the ST battery and see if it starts . . Oh and check the kill switch first . .

Then replace the starter solenoid and insulate/isolate any live leads . .
« Last Edit: December 14, 2015, 05:23:51 PM by STroppy »
Terry, Canberra 0412499625
Ulysses #22354, FarRider #761
Current bikes 2013 Triumph Trophy SE, 2008 ST1300
Previous bikes1948 Triumph Tiger 500 Twin - sprung rear hub, 1963 BSA Bantam 175, Yamaha 75cc & DT250, Honda ST1100, 400N & CX500 sports, BMW K100RS & K100 LT, Harley Electra-glid
 

Offline alans1100

  • 1999 ST1100A
  • UNBELIEVABLE "5000 Posts" Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 6250
  • Thanked: 1161 times
  • Alan, Peterborough, SA
Re: Intermittent starting problem has become permanent...
« Reply #2 on: December 14, 2015, 06:25:12 PM »
This is the starter relay I got for mine which as yet has to fitted. Wrong fuse in it but the OEM relay has two good 30 amp I can use.  http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/390948952312?_trksid=p2057872.m2749.l2649&ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT
1999 :bl11  2004 :13Candy

FarRider #921- BR15, BR17, CR1

 

Offline SteveR

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 298
  • Thanked: 61 times
Re: Intermittent starting problem has become permanent...
« Reply #3 on: December 14, 2015, 07:35:25 PM »


This is the starter relay I got for mine which as yet has to fitted. Wrong fuse in it but the OEM relay has two good 30 amp I can use.  http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/390948952312?_trksid=p2057872.m2749.l2649&ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT

EIGHT BUCKS?!!! Wow! To bad it can't get here 'till the new year :(

Might be time for a new battery . . . Use jumper leads from your car to the ST battery and see if it starts . . Oh and check the kill switch first . .

Then replace the starter solenoid and insulate/isolate any live leads . .


I hooked it up to the battery charger and still no luck, tomorrow I'll try it hooked to an actual battery on another bike.

Kill switch... You funny guy;) ...yes, I may have fallen for that once or twice before...
"Not all those who wander are lost"
 

Offline AliSTair

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Posts: 63
  • Thanked: 7 times
Re: Intermittent starting problem has become permanent...
« Reply #4 on: December 15, 2015, 09:07:06 AM »
mine is almost completely broken away inside, with the front two connectors floating free (ie, no plastic housing separating them).  So, I'm presuming this is my problem...


Thanks guys!!!

do you have any photo's?

 the red wire bypass linked in Alan's post looks fairly straightforward and should be able to get you on the road without the need for a new relay? 
 

Offline SteveR

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 298
  • Thanked: 61 times
Re: Intermittent starting problem has become permanent...
« Reply #5 on: December 17, 2015, 06:59:55 AM »
I meant to get a pic last night, but got caught on the phone most of the evening, I'll attempt it this afternoon.
"Not all those who wander are lost"
 

Offline SteveR

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 298
  • Thanked: 61 times
Re: Intermittent starting problem has become permanent...
« Reply #6 on: December 20, 2015, 10:30:17 PM »
Here's the offensive, offending connector: it's pretty clear to see, the front to connectors aren't insulated from each other, the rear two seem ok though (a little dirty, perhaps). All looks OK in the other side of the connection: .

Would anyone happen to have a link to the bypass mod which show some pictures? It doesn't sound too complicated, but I'd like to have a visual reference to compare my connections to. Thanks!
"Not all those who wander are lost"
 

Offline alans1100

  • 1999 ST1100A
  • UNBELIEVABLE "5000 Posts" Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 6250
  • Thanked: 1161 times
  • Alan, Peterborough, SA
Re: Intermittent starting problem has become permanent...
« Reply #7 on: December 20, 2015, 11:01:40 PM »
I would also find another plug as that one is past it's use by date. See mine in this post......4th pic http://ozstoc.com/index.php?topic=5948.msg67230#msg67230

Red Wire by-pass http://www.st-riders.net/index.php?topic=7130.0

A bit more technical but the better option Ignition Relay Bypass Modification  http://www.st-riders.net/index.php?PHPSESSID=mfgdk4te5kacce0k8m38ncnqg1&topic=3643.0

Wiring Diagram showing Ignition Modification. http://www.st-riders.net/aow/AOW%20-%20ST1100/Ignition%20Relay%20ByPass%20Modification%20-%20ST1100/post95_ignition_bypass_schematic.pdf
1999 :bl11  2004 :13Candy

FarRider #921- BR15, BR17, CR1

 

Offline SteveR

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 298
  • Thanked: 61 times
Intermittent starting problem has become permanent...
« Reply #8 on: December 20, 2015, 11:34:44 PM »
I would also find another plug as that one is past it's use by date. See mine in this post......4th pic http://ozstoc.com/index.php?topic=5948.msg67230#msg67230


Yeo, that's the picture which made me realise mine was cactus! The parts diagrams I've found show it as part of the loom and not purchase-able on its own, is that the case? If I wander down to Autobarn are they likely to have a generic one I can wire in place?

Regarding the two different approaches to fixing the issue, obviously the latter looks like a better long term solution, but I think I'll be going the cheap & cheerful route this time round. I just need it done, quickly and easily, I've got my son with me this week and I'm hoping to hit the road the morning after he goes to his mums, if not the same afternoon, so I'm sticking to easy fixes because I can't devote uninterrupted mental power to it!
"Not all those who wander are lost"
 

Offline alans1100

  • 1999 ST1100A
  • UNBELIEVABLE "5000 Posts" Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 6250
  • Thanked: 1161 times
  • Alan, Peterborough, SA
Re: Intermittent starting problem has become permanent...
« Reply #9 on: December 21, 2015, 12:30:07 AM »
You might have better luck getting one at an auto electrician or one from a wrecked 1100
1999 :bl11  2004 :13Candy

FarRider #921- BR15, BR17, CR1

 

Offline SteveR

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 298
  • Thanked: 61 times
Re: Intermittent starting problem has become permanent...
« Reply #10 on: December 22, 2015, 07:36:56 AM »
I picked up all the necessary bits yesterday, including a generic Narva 4 pin plug which fits perfectly (with a little shaving along one side). My only hesitation is that, if the chunky original one has melted away, how long will this white plastic thing last? Or is most of the heat generated by the red wire I'm relocating?

Hopefully I'll be able to report back at the end of the day with some good news.
"Not all those who wander are lost"
 

Offline Gadget

  • UNBELIEVABLE "5000 Posts" Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 5564
  • Thanked: 2098 times
  • Just Ridin'
Re: Intermittent starting problem has become permanent...
« Reply #11 on: December 22, 2015, 09:21:07 AM »
It is possible that over time due to corrosion, the joint become a "high" resistance joint. When you have corrosion the resistance goes up from micro or nano ohms to low ohms. That is not normally a problem until you try to draw any decent current through it and then it becomes hot at the joint. The heat then creates more corrosion until meltdown.

Ensure the connectors on both sides are clean, but don't clean off the tinning if its silver coated. Dissimilar metals at contact points can cause problems too. Some dissimilar metals together are almost self corrosive. They generate micro voltages which change with the temperature.
Cheers,
Gary
_________________________________________________________________________________________________________
Then  :blu13 Now :Spyder
Life's too short to be miserable, so enjoy it! :)
OzSTOC #257
FarRider #810
IBA #59140

Mob: 04 2448 3555
 
The following users thanked this post: Shiney

Offline SteveR

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 298
  • Thanked: 61 times
Re: Intermittent starting problem has become permanent...
« Reply #12 on: December 22, 2015, 10:00:15 PM »
Gyarrrrr!!! Red wire bypass performed, and still no dice!  How frustrating!   :||||

Here's an interesting observation though, the fuse holder I used has an LED on the outside, which did not light, indicating to me that the problem lies further down the line, however, the ignition barrel seems fine, as the power gets back down to the fuse box, so maybe just a faulty LED on the fuse housing.  Following the schematic I see the Lean angle sensor is next in line, when I was first looking into ST's I recall reading about faulty Lean angle sensors, could that be the cause, or was that only on the very first models?  This is an ST1100R, 12/93.  Hmmm... I'll have a beer while I think this over some more...

...in fact, after a quiet brew, the more obvious answer is that the relay is simply shagged... I'll pop down to Autobarn tomorrow and see if there is a generic replacement which might get me out of trouble just for now... Yes, you guessed right, the idea of sitting at home on my own drinking beer on Christmas day isn't very appealing, I want to be on the road!
« Last Edit: December 22, 2015, 10:25:18 PM by SteveR »
"Not all those who wander are lost"
 

Offline SteveR

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 298
  • Thanked: 61 times
Re: Intermittent starting problem has become permanent...
« Reply #13 on: December 22, 2015, 11:44:26 PM »
On a further update, I just measured the starter motor side of the relay (should have done that first really?) and she's dead as a dodo, only reading about .5v when the starter button is pushed.  I put shiny new terminals on the remaining three wires in the block on the relay, hoping that may have been contributing.  My Dad was here recently and gave me a hand with the burst water hoses, he measured the relay then trying to trace the problem and it seemed to be working then (this was when the problem was just intermittent), but from what I've read about overheating from that red wire, it's most likely that the relay's toast.
« Last Edit: December 22, 2015, 11:53:09 PM by SteveR »
"Not all those who wander are lost"
 

Offline SteveR

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 298
  • Thanked: 61 times
Re: Intermittent starting problem has become permanent...
« Reply #14 on: December 23, 2015, 12:16:58 PM »
In another moment of "Why don't you check the easy things first numnuts?!", I tried to bump start the ST off another bike, no dice.  Definitely the relay I guess.
"Not all those who wander are lost"
 

Offline Shiney

  • Dave
  • Global Moderator
  • UNBELIEVABLE "5000 Posts" Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 6707
  • Thanked: 2319 times
  • RTE Coordinator - Strathpine, QLD
Re: Intermittent starting problem has become permanent...
« Reply #15 on: December 23, 2015, 01:45:07 PM »
Thanks for keeping us updated on how the fix is going Steve, hopefully the relay will be the fix :thumbs
Keep the updates coming mate (I'm sure that this information will be a great help to anyone else that has these problems) :thumbsup
My Ride: 2023 ST1800   :thumb
OzSTOC #104   STOC# 8512   IBA # 59142
Find me in The Who's Who of OzSTOC!

I like shiney things :grin
One of the Dave, Dave, Dave and Duncan crew 8)
 

Offline SteveR

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 298
  • Thanked: 61 times
Re: Intermittent starting problem has become permanent...
« Reply #16 on: December 23, 2015, 02:21:52 PM »
Thanks mate, good to know I'm not just clogging up the boards with my own incompetence!

Peter Stevens had a generic relay in stock, at $26 I thought I'd give it a crack (I've got a similar one on another bike. Only thing is, it only has terminals for the two trigger wires (as well as the starter & battery posts), these would go to the starter button and clutch switch (going from the schematic in my memory, I think the other wire was the clutch switch?). Now, I've already got the main 12V off the relay and going straight to the battery, is there any issue with routing the charging wire from the alternator directly to the battery as well? Should I run it through a separate 30A fuse, or could it safely run in parallel with the Red 12v lead?
"Not all those who wander are lost"
 
The following users thanked this post: Shiney

Offline alans1100

  • 1999 ST1100A
  • UNBELIEVABLE "5000 Posts" Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 6250
  • Thanked: 1161 times
  • Alan, Peterborough, SA
Re: Intermittent starting problem has become permanent...
« Reply #17 on: December 23, 2015, 03:53:22 PM »
The alternator charge runs through the 55 amp fuse which is between the battery and starter battery if I read the circuit correctly. Thanks to your issue I have now worked out where the red wire from the battery goes (only red in picture). It goes to the ABS fuses and would only be on 1100A wiring diagrams.

« Last Edit: May 24, 2019, 02:39:28 PM by alans1100 »
1999 :bl11  2004 :13Candy

FarRider #921- BR15, BR17, CR1

 
The following users thanked this post: Shiney

Offline SteveR

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 298
  • Thanked: 61 times
Re: Intermittent starting problem has become permanent...
« Reply #18 on: December 23, 2015, 07:50:50 PM »
I've got the pirate model (R), it doesn't have that 55A fuse, the red/white wire runs directly from the regulator back to the relay connector. According to the schematic, the red and red/white are joined at the fuse:
"Not all those who wander are lost"
 

Offline alans1100

  • 1999 ST1100A
  • UNBELIEVABLE "5000 Posts" Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 6250
  • Thanked: 1161 times
  • Alan, Peterborough, SA
Re: Intermittent starting problem has become permanent...
« Reply #19 on: December 23, 2015, 10:21:49 PM »
whoops.....R and earlier have 28 amp alternator......55 amp fuse for later 40 amp one on S (1995) and newer
1999 :bl11  2004 :13Candy

FarRider #921- BR15, BR17, CR1

 

Offline SteveR

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 298
  • Thanked: 61 times
Re: Intermittent starting problem has become permanent...
« Reply #20 on: December 23, 2015, 10:50:13 PM »

whoops.....R and earlier have 28 amp alternator......55 amp fuse for later 40 amp one on S (1995) and newer
The thought has crossed my mind, in figuring this out, this bike (apparently) had a 40A alternator installed, but all still running through the original 30A wiring... Hmmm... That could explain the meltdown in the connector at the relay... Hmmm... Might run the Regulator wire (R/W) through a larger fuse...
"Not all those who wander are lost"
 

Offline SteveR

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 298
  • Thanked: 61 times
Re: Intermittent starting problem has become permanent...
« Reply #21 on: January 14, 2016, 08:27:44 PM »
Ok, time for a follow-up... so after a bit too much fiddling around, it turns out it was just the starter relay being intermittent, which was annoying, because it means the couple times I tested it, it was behaving... very frustrating!

Anyway, long story short, I picked up a generic relay from Peter Stevens, it is cylindrical though, so there was a bit of stuffing around trying to fit it, until I had a brainwave... when I took it out of its rubber sleeve, it fit perfectly into the rubber holster for the stock relay (as good as a round peg in a square hole can at least...), then just a bit of a bend to the two arms which held the original in place and there you go, snug and solid.  The 12V terminals are slightly further apart than the OEM though, so the rubber boot was a bit of a stretch to fit back on, bot around this by using the discarded rubber sleeve from the new relay and slipping it in place to effectively extend the boot.  Terminals covered, all safe, and starting first pop like she should!
"Not all those who wander are lost"
 
The following users thanked this post: Shiney, Abe

Offline Shiney

  • Dave
  • Global Moderator
  • UNBELIEVABLE "5000 Posts" Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 6707
  • Thanked: 2319 times
  • RTE Coordinator - Strathpine, QLD
Re: Intermittent starting problem has become permanent...
« Reply #22 on: January 14, 2016, 09:50:27 PM »
Awesome news :runyay
Glad to read that you have managed to get it all sorted out :clap :clap :clap
My Ride: 2023 ST1800   :thumb
OzSTOC #104   STOC# 8512   IBA # 59142
Find me in The Who's Who of OzSTOC!

I like shiney things :grin
One of the Dave, Dave, Dave and Duncan crew 8)
 

Offline AliSTair

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Posts: 63
  • Thanked: 7 times
Re: Intermittent starting problem has become permanent...
« Reply #23 on: January 15, 2016, 07:19:18 AM »
Phew...now you can get back to riding....assuming you sorted out those bolts?
 

Offline SteveR

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 298
  • Thanked: 61 times
Re: Intermittent starting problem has become permanent...
« Reply #24 on: January 15, 2016, 07:31:24 AM »

Phew...now you can get back to riding....assuming you sorted out those bolts?
YES! Bolts all sorted too (I'll need to write a follow up on that thread too...). I've been out and about on the little black Honda while this was all going on, my knees and back were VERY happy to hear the ST was sorted!!!

I'll probably be at Martians for breakky Sunday, might run into you there...?
"Not all those who wander are lost"