Oils, let the debate begin.

[terrydj]

Better things to do than worry about oil. Probably change it and the filter maybe on the 20/25000 mark and besides topping it up don't care really about it at all. I mean a zillion years ago me old man used to change the oil maybe every 5000 miles/8000 kilometers with not a concern and that was when miles were the go some 40 years ago and motors were no where near as efficient as today. Surely oil has gotten better, and still people change it under the 10000 kay mark.
I know people think its important but for me all thats important??? is that the bottle has a picture of a bike on it in it so I makes the right choice, or the person behind the counter knows the right one with the right numbers and letters on it.
That reminds me???????? better have a look to see if the bike needs some

[rendog]

Trend analysis through SOS is what we use on our Komatsu & CAT gear.
I must spend over an hour on each service just sampling oils.

Thanks for your informative posts rocketeer 

[Couch]

While I find all this information on oils very interesting and informative I wonder if it isn't somewhat lost on relatively slow revving bikes such as STs. I can understand how important it would be to run the very best oils in hi revving race engines, turbos, etc. but on STs......I really do have to wonder! When I brought my bike I recall the service manager of Pro Honda saying to me, "these motors are almost indestructible, change the oil and filter every 12,000kls and this motor should last you well over (250,000) a quarter million kls". He never mentioned that I had to use any specific oil to enable me to achieve that sort of mileage, I guess he figured that I'd use whatever oils that Honda recommended to go into my bike. I change my oil and filter every 12,000kls and I use Yamalube (Semi Synthetic) because this is the oil that my local Honda dealer recommended that I use, and is what they use themselves exclusively. Now maybe my bike engine will still be running after 250,000kls, and as much as I'd still like to be sitting on it if it is, I have my doubts, but while it continues to run as well as it does, with the oil I'm using, then I'll continue to use it.
Some of the guys on the ST Owners Forum in the USA have in excess of 250,000 miles on their bikes..........it would be interesting to learn what oils they've been using.

Fantastic information that's been posted, I've read every word and I've certainly found the information on oils interesting!!

[rocketeer]

Couch- you're exactly right, it is more important on high revving sportsbikes than torquey tourers.  Some people want to know they are running the best, some don't really see the need.  I personally do, apart from having multiple breakdowns in the past, for the fuel economy benefits, reduced vibrations, and long service life- the other side is I personally know of several vehicles which have lost the cooling system altogether, and not seized- 2 were race vehicles, one bike which had the head removed and no visible wear or damage.  For me it's something I have always been aware of, while others just don't put as much importance on the subject

[Biggles]

Couch- you're exactly right, it is more important on high revving sportsbikes than torquey tourers.  Some people want to know they are running the best, some don't really see the need.  I personally do, apart from having multiple breakdowns in the past, for the fuel economy benefits, reduced vibrations, and long service life- the other side is I personally know of several vehicles which have lost the cooling system altogether, and not seized- 2 were race vehicles, one bike which had the head removed and no visible wear or damage.  For me it's something I have always been aware of, while others just don't put as much importance on the subject

It must be nearly time you told us which is the best PM oil for an ST1100 and an ST1300 in good condition, operating in 20^o to 30^o and where one can get it from.   

[rocketeer]

Can do Biggles,thinking PM412 SAE15w40, leaning towards PM403 20w50 if in high heat, heavily ridden, showing signs of age or notchy gearchange for the engine

A distributor list is available at http://pmlubricants.com.au/page/key_distributors_in_australia_and_new_zealand.html.  I was thinking of doing something like if you are not close to one of the distributors, then I would sort something out- hopefully with free delivery or somesuch.

[rocketeer]

Roper-

As with synthetic, using a diesel oil doesn't guarantee a 'better' oil, rather if you are going from an average quality petrol to an average quality diesel, you will typically be on an oil which will reduce wear, diesel oils tend to have more ZDDP (the major anti wear additive) than petrols, as environmentalists claim catalytic converter poisoning from high levels of zinc.  Later API specifications (SN in particular) require very low levels of ZDDP to pass, in oils of 10w or less.  Interesting, that an oil of 15w40 can have high levels, whereas an oil of 10w40 cannot.....diesels don't need to limit the amount of zinc, untill you go to Low Ash oils, as designed for particulate filters in new common rail diesels.

[Couch]

Hey Rocketeer.............I would never knock anyone for aiming to put the best oil in their bike that money can buy .

I have always believed that generally speaking.......you get what you pay for!  If I thought for one moment that my bike would perform noticibly better by using a different oil, then I wouldn't hesitate to use it. It wouldn't matter if it cost a little more, after all, we're only changing oil every 12,000kls, or at least I am anyway. My bike runs smoothly, my gear changes are smooth, the running temp of my bike never varies, I have no noticible vibration whatsoever, I'm averaging 20.6 - 21 kls per litre, and have averaged this for the past 20,000kls, so I really have no reason to consider changing.  In regard to damage to any motor caused from loosing ones cooling system  (heaven forbid) much would depend on how long the motor ran without the system functioning, speed of the bike (revs) during that period, the heat of the day, etc. etc. I've seen numerous motor vehicles loose cooling systems and not suffer engine damage, but it's more good luck than good management.

That's not to say that your oil is not special.,,,..I'm sure it is :)

[Poppy Dave]

Roper-

As with synthetic, using a diesel oil doesn't guarantee a 'better' oil, rather if you are going from an average quality petrol to an average quality diesel, you will typically be on an oil which will reduce wear, diesel oils tend to have more ZDDP (the major anti wear additive) than petrols, as environmentalists claim catalytic converter poisoning from high levels of zinc.  Later API specifications (SN in particular) require very low levels of ZDDP to pass, in oils of 10w or less.  Interesting, that an oil of 15w40 can have high levels, whereas an oil of 10w40 cannot.....diesels don't need to limit the amount of zinc, untill you go to Low Ash oils, as designed for particulate filters in new common rail diesels.

Rocketeer,

That's very interesting but I'm still not sure if the answer I'm seeking is there ( No, I'm not blond. In fact I'm nothing these days. I do have a fine head of skin though).

1/ Do you think that the oil is dirtier because it's diesel and it's cleaning the motor?

2/ Is it worth sticking with the diesel even though there is no noticeable difference and if it is worth it, why?

Sorry to be a pain (everybody else.......... wait your turn) 

Dave R

[Dan]

OK rocketeer, I've read through your replies a couple of times.  Am I correct in summarising:

1. The most important element of oil is 'film strength' or 'load carrying ability'.
2. This is what works to prevent wear at start-up until the oil is up to full pressure.
3. ZDDP is one of the best things for getting high film strength.
4. High ZDDP is the most important part in determining a good oil - moreso than whether it is mineral, synthetic or semi-synthetic.
5. Higher viscosity oils can be produced with higher film strengths than low viscosity oils.
6. Due to the above, higher viscosity oils are better than low, provided the ambient temperature is not too low for the higher viscosity oil.
7. 'Diesel' oils may have more ZDDP in them as zinc can damage the catalyst where fitted to petrol vehicles.

Assuming this is correct, my next question is regarding zinc levels - what is considered 'good'?  I've looked at the 2 oils you've recommended from PM Lubricants but I don't see a Zinc figure.  Looking at the 2 Penrite oils mentioned on here, we have:

HPR5 Synthetic 5w-40 = 0.105%
HPR Diesel Semi Synth 15 15w-50 = 0.122%

Is this the figure we need to look for?  If so, how do they compare to your offerings?

Another qn - you have not mentioned a 'bike specific' oil, and it seems PM Lubricants don't do one specifically.  Are these 'bike' oils actually any different, or are they just using it as an excuse to charge us more $$$ for less oil??  (Told you I was a cynic!)

Thanks for taking the time to post on here, for those of us interested we can learn a lot.

[rocketeer]

Roper,

Sorry bout that. 

Could be coming down to a couple of things. You're right, in an engine with sludge after running say GTX and not changing VERY regularly changing to a quality diesel oil it will tend to clean up the system due to the additional detergents and additives to keep contaminants in suspension.  Though yours is only a new motor, i would sincerely hope you haven't got such build up already.   Without knowing what you are using now, I will take a risk and say it sounds like the oil is tanning and starting to break down with heat?  Is it just browning, or going fairly dark/ black?

As far as feeling a difference, old or new you will feel a difference when coming from a poor quality oil to a very high quality oil.  Minor improvements you may not feel unless you change viscosities.

What oil & viscosity were you using before, and using now? 

[Tipsy]

  py

Rocketeer could you tell me or send me some info regarding becoming a distributor.

I have friends who have auto/marine parts store in Victoria Point 4165 and would like to get them to stock your oils.

We have a lot members here in the  Redland City vicinity who may be interested.

Tipsy

[rocketeer]

OK rocketeer, I've read through your replies a couple of times.  Am I correct in summarising:

1. The most important element of oil is 'film strength' or 'load carrying ability'.
2. This is what works to prevent wear at start-up until the oil is up to full pressure.
3. ZDDP is one of the best things for getting high film strength.
4. High ZDDP is the most important part in determining a good oil - moreso than whether it is mineral, synthetic or semi-synthetic.
5. Higher viscosity oils can be produced with higher film strengths than low viscosity oils.
6. Due to the above, higher viscosity oils are better than low, provided the ambient temperature is not too low for the higher viscosity oil.
7. 'Diesel' oils may have more ZDDP in them as zinc can damage the catalyst where fitted to petrol vehicles.

Assuming this is correct, my next question is regarding zinc levels - what is considered 'good'?  I've looked at the 2 oils you've recommended from PM Lubricants but I don't see a Zinc figure.  Looking at the 2 Penrite oils mentioned on here, we have:

HPR5 Synthetic 5w-40 = 0.105%
HPR Diesel Semi Synth 15 15w-50 = 0.122%

Is this the figure we need to look for?  If so, how do they compare to your offerings?

Another qn - you have not mentioned a 'bike specific' oil, and it seems PM Lubricants don't do one specifically.  Are these 'bike' oils actually any different, or are they just using it as an excuse to charge us more $$$ for less oil??  (Told you I was a cynic!)

Thanks for taking the time to post on here, for those of us interested we can learn a lot.

Des,

It's great to see that I am actually explaining myself pretty well.  I would agree with most if not all points you raise.

Level of ZDDP is one of the most important, yes.  There are other factors, but an oil with high zinc level is very likely to be a good oil. My biggest personal issue is with oils there simply is no labelling system to indicate to users "this is best".  If they were forced to represent additive levels and specific testing then it may help the situation greatly.  A lot of oils simply wouldn't sell if they had to show real world test results.  Another issue is there is no legislation to say you can't publish theoretical test results.  Gear oils are a big abuser of this- an additive producing company will say using this particular set of additives will give a theoretical load of 'x'lbs in a timken OK load test.  The oil manufacturer uses those additives, but instead of 100% of them to achieve that load, they might use 30% of them, but still claim to achieve those theoretical loads.  This is similar to API- NO oil in Australia (that I am aware of) is actually tested to meet API.  Rather oils theoretically pass API specifications based on the additive packs used.

OK back on topic

 To give you an idea on levels, I haven't seen PM's published zinc levels, but I have been told they are upward of 1500 ppm (1.5%<)  The Penrite HPR range was always designed as a high zinc oil, hence the high level in the Diesel oil.  I have been told by a reliable source that the Penrite synthetics have been a real issue, and to stick with the HPR range.  I believe average commercial oil zinc levels are 700-900 ppm, cheap supermarket oils less than 500ppm.

(Insider information)  PM are in the process of producing a bike specific oil. In that we are in the process of producing bike specific labels, bottles, and MSDS to meet market expectations.  I am trying to get the product into chains, who expect a product to 'look like' a motorcycle product so their customers can see that it is a motorcycle safe product, also catering for those who argue "but I only need 3.5 litres, why am I buying 5 litres?" (yes, I actually have been told that).  Same oil, but for the cost of production of additional labels, retail specific bottles (instead of the basic, inexpensive but effective plain bottle we currently use) people buying through these retailers will pay the same price for 4 litres instead of 5 litres.  By the time the retailer puts additional profit on top, yes their customers probably will pay more for less.  Is there a difference between motorcycle oil and car oil in Australia?  Since friction modifiers were effectively banned in the 80's, any properly built oil will service many machines including motorcycle and marine.  Cheaper oils may change the recipe to cater for specific machines to overcome the shortcomings of producing to a price.

I know this adds to your cynicism, unfortunately catering for specific markets drives costs up.  However, those who know PM and buy directly or from one of our distributors still gets 5 litres at the retail price. 

[rocketeer]

Tipsy, I'll message you soon

[terrydj]

You know I have read near every post??? And it seems for the past 40 years odd years on bikes, on the road and my time before I have been doing the wrong thing in regards to oils. Me, I've always brought the cheapest I can buy, I only change the stuff when I remember, or top it up when  I look at the guage
But the Old K100 I put near on half a million  kays, and on adverage way over the 150000 kays on the others without a complaint with never an oil change under the 20000 kay mark and the only time dear oil has gone it is when I have checked it at a servo in the middle of the night and had to buy some oil from their.
Think I'll stick to the old 20/50 from Target, big W cause in all honesty, can't really seeing an oil company spending heaps of cash on the same oil just so they can sell it dearer to the half dozen that will buy it

[Dan]

(Insider information)  PM are in the process of producing a bike specific oil. In that we are in the process of producing bike specific labels, bottles, and MSDS to meet market expectations.  I am trying to get the product into chains, who expect a product to 'look like' a motorcycle product so their customers can see that it is a motorcycle safe product, also catering for those who argue "but I only need 3.5 litres, why am I buying 5 litres?" (yes, I actually have been told that).  Same oil, but for the cost of production of additional labels, retail specific bottles (instead of the basic, inexpensive but effective plain bottle we currently use) people buying through these retailers will pay the same price for 4 litres instead of 5 litres.  By the time the retailer puts additional profit on top, yes their customers probably will pay more for less.  Is there a difference between motorcycle oil and car oil in Australia?  Since friction modifiers were effectively banned in the 80's, any properly built oil will service many machines including motorcycle and marine.  Cheaper oils may change the recipe to cater for specific machines to overcome the shortcomings of producing to a price.

I know this adds to your cynicism, unfortunately catering for specific markets drives costs up.  However, those who know PM and buy directly or from one of our distributors still gets 5 litres at the retail price.

Now this I find interesting.  I have wondered for a while what is special about m/c oil. 

Yeah I'm a cynic, but hey if I were selling the stuff, I would want to sell less for more, just because there is a picture of a bike on the bottle?  That's capitalism I guess.  As soon as anything becomes specialised the price goes up.  And if nothing else, people can buy peace of mind knowing that the oil will be OK for their bike. 

Thanks again for the replies rocketeer 

[rocketeer]

It's more being forced to, in our case. The market says we demand xyz,, which adds cost, I can't speak for all  companies.

[rocketeer]

Good one Terry, I agree why change if it works for you? I wish I had that sort of record! Thanks for reading the lot though, appreciate the interest!

[saaz]

Just one question on ZDDP.  Newer formulations seem to have less and less of it if they have to meet the applicable standard, but are there any other additives that might do the same job?

[rocketeer]

Saaz to my knowledge No. manufacturers are introducing additives such add molybdenum disulphide, which acts as a barrier lubricant reducing wear when metal posts contact, in lieu of higher film strength. This is not as effective in reducing friction and wear

[rocketeer]

http://www.machinerylubrication.com/Read/518/motor-oils

Where ultra thin oils are coming from, and why manufacturers are specifying them more and more

[STeveo]

Hi Rocketeer, thanks for your informative info so far (I'm sure we will learn more as we go). Three things I ask if you could confirm for me please;
 1 base oil does not break down, it is only the additives.
2 that as our st engines are very similar to car engines, would not the same oils be sufficent.
3 all oils sold in Australia must meet a basic standard, and so would be suitable for most engines.
Re the diesel oil, I would be worried about the extra detergents effect on the linings of the clutch plates over a long term. Had a problem with this in a Suzuki trail bike many years ago using series 3, the glue holding the fibre to the steel rings melted in the oil. Why was I using series 3? because I could get it for free!
Thanks.

[rocketeer]

Gday STeveo

1.  Agree, in most cases.  Heavy overfuelling will break down base oil acting like a degreaser.  But for all intents and purposes under normal operating conditions, yes.
2.  Agree, to a point.   A properly built oil will do all types of engines- marine, diesel, petrol, passenger vehicle, prime mover, motorcycle, small engine- it's the engine and use that will determine viscosity after that.  In all seriousness, GTX is just as effective in a car engine as a motorcycle engine under the same stresses.  It's a rarity that an oil is 'built for a purpose', rather poorly built oils have trade offs when used in different applications.  In saying that, some high end additive packs or very specific limitations such as 'low ash' reduce a manfacturer's ability to satisfy all criteria.  Or sometimes it's purely market expectations that forces oil companies to labeluse specific oils.
3.   There is no issue using a diesel oil in these bikes, infact any wet clutch motorcycle- we have had multiple machines running on diesel rated oil for decades.

Hope this helps

Brad

[STeveo]

Thanks for the reply Brad. Have used the series 3 diesel oil in many car engines and they all did high mileages with no problems, only the trail bike caused dramas. What you wrote about the diesel oil haveing the additives that our older engines needs makes a lot of sense. The stainless mesh oil filters, are they fine enough and how do they compare to paper filtration wise?

[rocketeer]

Unfortunately not.

I looked into them fairly heavily a few years ago, was very close to investing in them but was warned off them. 

I wish I could find the email, I contacted Noria, who released an article on filtration, namely http://www.machinerylubrication.com/Read/28436/story-automotive-filters-engines.  It touches on the subject breifly, so I contacted Jeremy for clarification.  He stated that the stainless mesh filters simply weren't as effective as throwaway units.  His advice to me was simply find a synthetic media filter. 

The best filter I have found on paper so far is Amsoil's filters.  I am currently running them but haven't done any testing to conclude their effectiveness.  K&N filters are a synthetic media, and again on paper are a good filter.  They are cheap, available, and easy to use. 

Amsoil filters claimed total filtration (some 98.9%) all particles 15 micron and above, 50% 7 micron and above, which is impressive.  I have seen results before/ after analysis from the states which look very promising.
K&N Claimed total filtration all particles 20 micron and above
Cellulose filters (including OEM filters) AVERAGE somewhere between 30 and 50 micron absolute filtration. 

There are 2 methods of coming to the above conclusion.  The first is counting and measuring the pores in the filter media under a microscope.  The second is taking samples and measuring the particles in oil which has passed through the filter media.  Unfortunately, I don't know which filters use which method, as method B would be the most accurate.  I believe Amsoil use method B, but I am not certain.

These are very simplistic figures, but give you an idea as to the effectiveness of different filters.

BTW I believe highly in magnetic sumps.  Yes they remove some material from the oil (I have read reports that the particles would have to be large enough that they would be caught by the filter anyway, so therefore are effectively useless in aiding filtration) however give a very good indication of how your engine is wearing- very little iron filings vs lots of filings.  If you change your oil and suddenly see lots of filings, you can start wondering why you suddenly have far higher wear than usual....