Knock Sensors

[Dennisgw]

Hi All,

I have a long term problem with my ST1300 with the PGMI light coming on continuously once the bike gets hot. I might ride 50-100 kms before the light comes on first. After stopping it might come on again after a few kilometres. There is no apparent adverse affect on the performance of the bike.

The fault has been diagnosed as the RH knock sensor and research on the web has indicated that this is a known fault with the ST1300 and is seemingly more of a problem with the wiring to the knock sensor rather than the sensor itself. The cause is heat from the RH exhaust burning the wiring, hence the problem surfacing whenever the bike is hot.

Has anyone else experienced this problem and is there a reliable fix for the problem.

I have to admit to being a little tardy in getting this fixed myself, partly because my bike has been reluctant to leave the shed these days.

Before I get down and dirty to pull the fairing off and all else, I wanted to get any info I can on  the experience of others, if any, with this problem.

BTW, it is a 2004 model.

Cheers

Dennis
 

[Biggles]

Does the discussion on the other Forum mention heat-shielding the wire?  Or moving it away from the exhaust?  That would logically seem to be the first step towards solving the problem.

[Dennisgw]

You're right, something along those lines would seem like a logical solution and No, I haven't seen another solution.

I haven't been too fussed about though I should look at it soon. I was hoping someone local may have experienced the problem as the other info was all from O/S.

Dare I say it but a sheet of asbestos material would be nice!!!

 

[Gavo]

  Hmm Hey Malcom dont we have 04s as well



How many kms just incase i am to see the same ?

[Dennisgw]

Not many.

Low 20's. The bike still only has about 28,000 on it.  :( still less than 30 anyway.

Now I sit back and await the responses to the low mileage .......... 

[Malcolm6112]

I've had no problems really. I did have the F1 come up not so long ago. Turned the bike off and restarted. Light stayed off.

I'm interested to hear that the knock sensor is a "common" fault.

When I've had the plastic off, I haven't paid any attention to the exhaust or wiring to the sensors.
Your best bet would be to take the plastics off, it's not hard. Might be a plug not connected properly.

 

[Gavo]

I got 54 on mine got it with 34 had no problems

Knock knock

[Malcolm6112]

Coming up two years in September, wife won't let me forget.

25K then, just over 45K now.
Get the fairing cheat sheets and a table to put the plastics onto Dennis. With a table the plastics don't get scratched.

There is a workshop manual available in the 1300 section.

 

[Dennisgw]

Guess I will have to get myself organised, stop procrastinating and pull the covers off.

Here is a link to another's experience and a preventive solution for those interested.

http://www.st-owners.com/forums/showthread.php?87683-Knock-Sensor-Wire

Like one of the guys who responded to the above post, mine started on a very hot day during a ride from Glen Innes, through Grafton to Brisbane. The first show of the light was mid way between Grafton and Casino.

 

[Malcolm6112]

Thanks for the heads up. Next time the tupperware is off I'll make a point to check these wires.

 

[Biggles]

I got 54 on mine got it with 34 had no problems

Knock knock

Who's there?

[Pete54]

 Hi Dennis!, you will be happy to know i have the same problem. while riding my 03 1300  up here to the gold coast from Lismore, about halfway home sitting on about 120ks i noticed the malfunction light on!, nothing changed with performance all was normal. Arrived home shut the  bike down , started it again later and no light! didn`t have anymore problems until halfway home from the Dugandan gig when it came on again. So last saterday i rode up to Nerang Honda,where a very helpful mechanic traced it to the same sensor !!. He told me they never have any probs with the actual sensors it`s always the wires ( harnis ) leading to the sensor!.  NOW! to save me $$$ he told me to take the bottom fairing off  and have a look at the sensor he said it will most likely be heat affected try to cover the sensor with some heat reflective tape or whatever, this may fix the problem. If not $170 .00 for a new wiring harnis & about 4 hours labour to fix it!, totaling over $600.00. The good news is if you don`t do anything the light will still come on but it`s not causing any dramas, but at some stage it needs to be addressed!!. If there is any faults with the ST 1300 is the fact that the sensor is to close to the hedder pipe wich will get bloody hot!!............Ok raved on enough let me know how you progress with this!!..........Pete   

[Dennisgw]

Hey Pete,

Thanks Muchly. Confirms what I thought.

I will have a go at fixing it somehow next week so I can test it on the ride to Inverell. I am not to sure what to expect when I pull the covers off. When I do, I will take a few before and after snapshots and post them on here. Being an aged mechanic who hasn't been on tools for a long time it could be a bit of a challenge ...  .

The best I could get from the local dealership here was confirmation that it was the knock sensor and a bit of a grilling about what fuel I used and the possibility of labouring it too much, which I have to admit I have done at times.

Cheers
Dennis

[saaz]

Dennis, I think you will find that some on here use normal 91 in their ST13s with no issues.  If you are using 95 or better fuel I can't see that labouring the motor would matter at all, as the bike is specified to use that fuel after all.

[Dennisgw]

Hi Saaz,

I have religously used premium fuel in it since day dot. I have never had any sense of detonation, pinging etc. so I wasn't overly concerned when they quizzed me on what fuel I was using. That said, the bike is a lot more responsive and pleasurable to ride when I do use the lower gears. I got to enjoy the flexibility of the Blackbird so whenever I got on the ST it was a bit of a different ballgame and with Terri on the back I was tending to be a little less aggressive  :)

[Biggles]

Dennis, I think you will find that some on here use normal 91 in their ST13s with no issues.  If you are using 95 or better fuel I can't see that labouring the motor would matter at all, as the bike is specified to use that fuel after all.

I'm one of the culprits.  I use 91 RON Unleaded in my ST1300.  I've done extensive spreadsheet data runs on Premium, Unleaded and Additives and can find no significant difference taking into account city versus country riding.

I've also previously stated that I can accelerate from 60 kph in top gear without lugging or pinging.  Adding a pillion means I'm far more likely to drop back a gear, especially if she hasn't missed a lot of meals.

[Pete54]

  Knock knock!.....it`s me again!, well the saga continues! , went around to the brother in laws 2 weeks ago to try to fix the knock sensor problem ( he`s a pretty handy bike fixer guy ) . The idea was to remove all the loose & melted wire covering then  place heat shrink over the wire then wrap it all in heat resistant tape, wich we managed to acheave    ( not a lot of room to work with the side pannels still on!) . So the end result is the F1 light still comes on  but only after sustained 120k riding, & nothing changes performance wise, so i went back to Nerang honda & spoke to 2 mechanics who said don`t worry to much about it as it won`t cause any damage to the bike!. What they did say was to always use premium fuel as these are high teck motors and are designed to use it, and this may also help fix the problem!. So! Dennis how did you get on with your same problem, did you get a result??..............cheers!.............Pete.

[Dennisgw]

Hi Pete,

I did have a play with the bike to the extent of removing the tupperware and making a heat shield from light aluminium sheet to fit between the exhaust and the knock sensor and its wiring. I didn't get the result I wanted though I did change the behaviour of it somewhat. It now seems to come on quicker and easier  >:( . I am wondering if the shield I fitted, being aluminium, might be increasing the heat effect on the sensor and wiring.

When I had the problem diagnosed as the RH knock sensor many moons ago I was also warned about always using Premium fuel etc, which I have always done and we talked a bit about my ridng style as I was a touch guilty of labouring the engine a bit, so I now tend to ride in a gear lower than I used to prior to that. Bear in mind that I was also used to riding a Blackbird as well which took off like a scolded cat whenever the throttle was opened.

I have thoughts now of swapping the two sensors from side to side in an effort to confirm if it is the wiring or the sensor itself. Honda had the foresight to use the same sensor on each side. The logic being that I could have the system tested again and see if the fault moves to the LH side. I just haven't gotten around to making time to do that as yet (At this time I am a little more interested in a tyre problem which I think Biggles gave me the answer to this morning). At one stage I was prepared to buy a new sensor until I learned that they are $270.00 each and there weren't any in the country anyway, so that put paid to that idea. Delivery lead time was about 2 weeks.

I have another project on at the moment that I am keen to finish and then I will take time to get back to this issue. Please keep in touch so we can compare notes and hopefully come up with the right solution.
Cheers for now.
Dennis

[Aj1300]

I run my 13 on Ron 91 no pinging or performance problem. Mine has only got 14k on it though. When I bought it the Honda del told me it wouldn't make any difference  if I used the 91. He said to stay away from ethanol bend

[Pete54]

Hey Dennis!, i`m thinking your right an aluminium cover would just make it worse, i would remove it asap. Mabe try  my trick & cover the wire in heat shrink then cover it with some heat resistant tape or similar, as the mechanic said he`s never seen a sensor give trouble it`s always the wire leading to the sensor!. At the moment i see 2 alternatives pay the bike shop $600 to fix it, $170 for the wiring harnes & the rest is labour!, or the cheap way out , take the bulb out ! NO MORE F1 LIGHT!!.....cured!.....Pete!!

[saaz]

I did a bit of a search on the issue, and it seems that either 'some do it' which does not help, or the wire and plug into the sensors need to be carefully checked and possibly replaced as even if they look ok the connection is not right.  Don't assume that because the wire looks ok that it is as some have reported that the heat degrades the wire.  An I read of a case where the plug itself onto the sensor was brittle and not 100%.

[Pete54]

Knock Knock again!, while i was waiting for my new tyres to be fitted @ Team Moto Honda Nerang the outher day, i noticed onother st 13 out the back of the work shop & fellow simler age to me sitting reading a bike mag. So puting 2&2 together i asked if he owned the st & yes he did so we started chating and funny thing his st was suffering the same knock sensor problems as mine , they replaced the right hand knock sensor but the light was still coming on!. He bought it back in for the mechanics to work out what was happening  I don`t know the end result but am keen to find out!, but anyway i gave him one of our cards and he was very impressed! as he always looked on the USA site!, So we may have another member! Barry stevens is his name , rids a noce looking red 04 st1300 !!, so if your reading this barry hurry up and be one of the crew!!  .............Pete

[Dennisgw]

Hi Peter,

It is good to know that it is just not me anymore!

I am in the process of shedding a few motor vehicles so maybe in the new year I might get more time to work on this and see what we can come up with.

If you know anyone who would like a good Ford FG XR6 Turbo, 2010/11 model tell them to give me a call. It is going cheap and quick.

[Pete54]

 Hi dennis! i sure will, one of our 21 year old twin boys just bought a 2011 xr6 turbo ute! with all the gear, traded his ss comodore ute!. He said this thing really halls arse it`s a beautiful vehicle to drive but not practicle for me!........Pete!

[honda tech]

hi guys. theres never a problem with the knock sensor itself, we have never sold one here and prob never will,
every prob we have had so far is the wire loom the comes from under the tank/airbox and gos to both the knock sensors always melt with heat, now they are a shielded wire and will 9 out of 10 times need replacing. i have heard of a few guys trying to fit new plugs etc and had no luck... i am one of them guys.
i have 2 st1300s with the problem here now, and i have one that is still throwing the sensor light on, i have replaced the loom as it was melted badly and also found a melted plug under the throttle body going to a injector, so i fixed that to.
but... the code still comes up, theres a way to see if yours still have a fault but placing it on the centre stand and holding the revs at 4,500rpm for 5/6 seconds. then a drop in the ecm map will bring on the light untill you reset the fi, ie turning off the key.
i have had many of these cases and have always fixed the problem. but this one has passed all the tests and checks and now the only thing it can be is the ecm has been spiked but the sensor wire.

note, as pete said, the bike will run fine and will not cause damage it will need looking at soon. if i can help please ask. on anything you may need.
and ps. thanks pete for the nice remark towards me.