Author Topic: ST1100 Cracked Block  (Read 5164 times)

Offline RCMCY

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ST1100 Cracked Block
« on: April 19, 2016, 10:09:34 AM »
I find every ST1100 I look at old or late model low or high mileage has a cracked block so with a laser temp machine I have taken some temps of the RH rear block by the drain screw which appears to be where the cracks start.
Temps of 140c and above have been registered on every bike I have tried all the other cylinders have temps of 100c or even less.
So it seems that the coolant is boiling in the rear and causing hot spots resulting in the cracking.
Looking into the right angle water connections under the carbs it looked like the rear cylinder had a smaller outlet than the rest but by enlarging the clearance in the head did not decrease the temp.
It appears there is virtually no coolant circulation in the RH rear block.
A Band aid fix is to use Waterless coolant such as Evans which they claim has a boiling point of 190c, as this is above the 140c plus measured it may stop the hot spots and help reduce or cure the cracking problem.
Anybody else got any ideas or has somebody got an old cracked block that can be cut open and have a look to see if it can be modified to increase or make the coolant flow in the problem area.
Cheers
Ron
 

Offline STroppy

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Re: ST1100 Cracked Block
« Reply #1 on: April 19, 2016, 10:53:33 AM »
So are those 1100's with a cracked block losing coolant, how much coolant is being lost and what effect is it having on the performance and engine life?

As the cracks radiate out from the oil plug drain, could it be that over tightening this after an oil change causes the crack to start?
Terry, Canberra 0412499625
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Offline Gadget

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Re: ST1100 Cracked Block
« Reply #2 on: April 19, 2016, 11:48:49 AM »
The 'laser temp machine' will be an infrared (IR) thermometer with a laser spot to indicate the Centre of the infrared cone (field of view of the infrared detector).

There are a few tricks to successfully making IR measurements;

1. Understanding emmisivity. Emissivity is how IR reacts with dull and shiney surfaces. To demonstrate get a shiney tin can and half fill it with very hot water. Measure the temp at the bottom and at the top of the tin sides and you will get similar results and much lower than you expect. Put some black insulation tape on the side on the tin and measure the temp there and you will now see temperatures much closer to those you expect. Shiney surfaces reflect the ambient radiated IR from the surroundings and not the IR of the surface you are trying to measure.

Another way is to stand next to a mirror and point the IR thermometer at the mirror so the reflected laser points to the palm of your hand. You will measure temperature of your skin. Close to 30 to 36°C if you've had your fist clenched before making the measurement.

2. The further you are away the surface you are measuring, the larger the measurement area. A circle increasing away from the Centre of the laser.  This means you may be measuring other items nearby like exhaust pipes, which if shiney, will reflect IR from the surrounding environment.

3. The laser is usually not shining from the Centre of the measurement source, so a certain distance away the laser won't be pointing at the measurement area at all. Rack device had an optimum and maximum measurement range.

Some light (pardon the pun) reading can be found here.

http://irinformir.blogspot.com.au/2012/02/thermographic-measurement-techniques.html?m=1
« Last Edit: April 19, 2016, 11:51:52 AM by Gadget »
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Online Brock

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Re: ST1100 Cracked Block
« Reply #3 on: April 19, 2016, 07:37:59 PM »
I dont think I have heard of an actual cracked block on Ozstoc, and certainly no reports of localised boiling.

A cracked block would normally exhibit oil or coolant loss. Unless of course its an internal crack
Brock
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Offline RCMCY

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Re: ST1100 Cracked Block
« Reply #4 on: April 19, 2016, 08:27:00 PM »
You guys are missing the point its not the casting the problem is no coolant circulation in the RH rear if you look at the 10mil coolant drain plug the cracks start usually down from the drain plug.
The problem looks to be the water pump is delivering more coolant to the left hand side, currently looking for an impeller which will circulate more coolant and maybe a mod so more flow is to the Right.
You state no cracks I currently have 3 ST,s in the workshop plus a wreck written off several years ago all are cracked but not leaking coolant yet.
I am in Eagleby Qld. 4207
Cheers
Ron
 

Offline STroppy

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Re: ST1100 Cracked Block
« Reply #5 on: April 19, 2016, 08:35:57 PM »
Aah, in Eagleby, Qld, 4207 . . . that explains it all . . .

Seriously though . . You are the first person I have heard bring up the cracking of the block. Maybe there are many other bikes out there with cracks not dedtected, there are certainly quite a few out there with hundreds of thousands of K's on the without oil or coolant loss via cracks in the block, not heard of any suffering performance loss from the same either.

However, would like to hear how you solve the problem . .
Terry, Canberra 0412499625
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Previous bikes1948 Triumph Tiger 500 Twin - sprung rear hub, 1963 BSA Bantam 175, Yamaha 75cc & DT250, Honda ST1100, 400N & CX500 sports, BMW K100RS & K100 LT, Harley Electra-glid
 

Online Shiney

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Re: ST1100 Cracked Block
« Reply #6 on: April 20, 2016, 06:31:37 PM »
Hi Ron,

What effect will the crack produce?
   Will there be coolant or oil loss?
   Will there be a reduction in power and performance?
   Is it easy to see the crack with just the Tupperware removed?


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Offline RCMCY

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Re: ST1100 Cracked Block
« Reply #7 on: April 20, 2016, 08:57:29 PM »
Hi
I suggest you Google ST1100 cracked block where you will find more details than I can supply plus lots of pictures of cracks, I am hoping by using waterless coolant (Evans is one brand)which boils at a higher temperature it will stop the cracks getting worse and leaking coolant.
Just a theory at this stage, I would like to try and modify the water pump impeller to direct more flow to the right hand side but that's a job in the future when I can scrounge some old pumps off small cars and find an impeller to modify.
I found out about the serious of this problem when a Gold Coast dealer wanted to buy a second hand motor from me because he had an ST badly cracked and leaking coolant, on checking my 3 ST's and the wreck he wanted to buy they were all cracked but not leaking coolant yet.
If you shine a good light up through the oil inspection hole so it shines upwards behind the exhaust pipe RH Rear and find the 10mil coolant drain plug the cracks seem to start from this plug usually downwards but look on the net lots of photo's there
Cheers
Ron
 
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Offline STroppy

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Re: ST1100 Cracked Block
« Reply #8 on: April 20, 2016, 10:09:14 PM »
Found this on another ST site . . . Also found some crankcase parts for less then $200 . .

Following my recent experience of the engine block cracking on the right hand side/rear I am having to change the engine in my ST1100, as the cracking was through to the water jacket.

The replacement engine from another owner has also got cracks along the right hand side, but no leaks from it, so will JBWeld it to stop the cracks getting any bigger.

On the other site I am on there has just been another case of another ST1100 with cracks in the same place, this time leaking coolant, like mine.
Another owner, having just had a look at his has spotted the same cracks on his.

The bikes concerned have been
1999 - 55,000 miles (ex police)
1999 - 64,000 miles (ex police)
2001 - 72,000 miles

With these and ones on here (George,etc) I would like to ask all ST1100 owners if next time they have the panels off, they can have a close look at their engine blocks on the right hand side (near to the frame, under the exhausts, especially near the block water drain plug and the castings where the head bolts and top to bottom section of block are)

If you find cracks here, can you please pass on details of the age and mileage of the bike and include photos, if possible, also what sort of climate the bike is subjected to, ie cold winters or hot/ warm all year.

One or two of us are wondering if, because of faulty casting later in the production life, there has been casting issues that surface after a number of years. This is something owners, or propective owners need to be aware of and Honda as well, even though I doubt they would do anything about it.
Terry, Canberra 0412499625
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Current bikes 2013 Triumph Trophy SE, 2008 ST1300
Previous bikes1948 Triumph Tiger 500 Twin - sprung rear hub, 1963 BSA Bantam 175, Yamaha 75cc & DT250, Honda ST1100, 400N & CX500 sports, BMW K100RS & K100 LT, Harley Electra-glid
 
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Offline alans1100

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Re: ST1100 Cracked Block
« Reply #9 on: April 21, 2016, 02:01:47 AM »
1999 :bl11  2004 :13Candy

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Offline tding

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Re: ST1100 Cracked Block
« Reply #10 on: April 21, 2016, 08:23:04 AM »
Would it be possible to attach a hose from the drain hole on the block to somewhere else on the cooling system to improve circulation of coolant to that cylinder?
After looking at this problem on the interweb yes you maybe getting uneven flow from the water pump but it's the housing that would have to be modified not the impeller.
 But the problem is only with one cylinder and the flows around the cylinders is partly controlled by the holes in the head         
http://i243.photobucket.com/albums/ff22/P_Account0818/1991%20Honda%20ST1100/Head%20gasket%20repair/image003.jpg
« Last Edit: April 21, 2016, 10:00:33 AM by tding »
 
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Offline Piet

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Re: ST1100 Cracked Block
« Reply #11 on: April 22, 2016, 11:42:23 AM »
Hi Ron,

Thanks for your post.  Thats a very interesting observation about the potential problem where cracks can develop perhaps due to heat spots in an area of poor coolant flow.

I have not checked my bike yet.  Mine is a 2000 ex police, with around 72k thus far.  Next time the plastic is off I will check it out.

I run Evans coolant in both the ST and a little VTR250.  I decided to do this based on the greatly increased boiling point as well as the fact that I sure as hell did not want vapour caused hot spots.  Shortly after I went to Evans coolant (62K) I did have a jammed (closed) thermostat in summer and it got scary hot.  I don't believe that any damage occurred and it seems to be none the worse for wear.  I will be very interested to check out the block as soon as I get a chance.  In my humble opinion I do believe that the Evans coolant got me through a situation where normal coolant would have left me with serious issues to contend with. 

Please keep us updated if you do manage to modify the impeller for increased flow rates and other mods to improve flow to that area.
Piet.

« Last Edit: April 22, 2016, 11:45:51 AM by Piet »
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Offline Greencan

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Re: ST1100 Cracked Block
« Reply #12 on: May 01, 2016, 07:35:44 PM »
Wow! What a cracking thread, hey! Sorry about the vernacular, but am presently in Un Zud, but have had a little time as we wind up a 4 week break exploring this, the worlds greatest motorcycle ride-me country.

Well, I have read this and its various spin off threads worldwide, tis puzzling that, if correct I would have thought in the over cautious world we now find ourselves living in, it would have come to the attention of Product Safety Recall, as the risk of a crankcase potentially lunching itself and spilling coolant all over the rear wheel would be of interest to em.

It hasn't, maybe a clue that, hey!

Just a thought,

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Offline RCMCY

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Re: ST1100 Cracked Block
« Reply #13 on: May 01, 2016, 09:33:49 PM »
Hi
Have been working on cracked block, I attach a photo of an ST motor I have in a 3 wheel car which I built some 10 Yrs ago as there is no frame you can see the side of the block easily, the cracks are obvious but at this stage all below the water line. this area appears to be running extremely hot.
You will see I have fitted a 3/16 copper line from the drain plug which connects into the inlet of the water pump so when reassembled will take temps.
The next step I may try is a 1/4 copper line with a tap so can alter the flow of the bypass, but are frightened if bypass is to large it may reduce flow upwards through head and just circulate it through the bypass
All interesting its keeping me amused
Cheers
Ron
 
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Offline Greencan

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Re: ST1100 Cracked Block
« Reply #14 on: May 06, 2016, 08:14:06 AM »
Humm...

Well Ron if you believe that the cracking, anomalies that you and others have referenced are the result of excessive pooling (or turbulant flow), of coolant at this location, what say you about the added adverse temperature effect directly above this area, at the hottest point within the engine, that being around the combustion chamber, specifically, above the exhaust port?

I ask this as I cannot reason with your rationale of cause.

I will stand to be corrected, but it is my understanding the the component you question is a die cast casing. As such it is also my belief that the most probable cause of all the anomalies reported are flaws, directly attributed to manufacturing process...

http://www.ijrat.org/downloads/march-2014/paper%20id-232014109.pdf

...as the anomalies pictured are all in the same vicinity and all display subtle variations consistant with dross, slag imperfections consistant with a casting of this type.

Like you I too have multiple engines to look at, 2 from Aust. delivered machines in the late 90's, 1 from a US (Calf.),  delivered machine and 1 from a UK delivered machine, both early to mid 90's delivery. I will look at them when next I have time.

If I get time later this year I will retrieve one of the 2 additional engines I have and look it detail at them, providing I find the flaws in the first place.

But at this time, I am not the least bit concerned about the operational integity of either engines I have working in road worthy bikes, one of which clearly has a flaw in the same vicinity to that shown in the image in Ron's post. Nor, I believe should another else.

Cheers, the can :-)

 
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Offline Piet

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Re: ST1100 Cracked Block
« Reply #15 on: May 12, 2016, 02:32:07 PM »
The way I read it is ... Ron is saying he has seen a number of engines with cracks appearing in the block and in time,  at some future point start to leak from the developed/developing cracks?

If that is the case then it's a good question to ask, What is causing this? One possibility is that if the flow rate in the area is lower than required to keep it cool at that location then we could have localized boiling, a vapour bubble forming on the wall.  As soon as the vapour forms the coolant is no longer in contact with the wall.  The vapour is only 4% as efficient as water in heat transfer so the block will be able to get extremely hot in these spots and if they develop and then collapse with water circulated then the thermal expansion contraction might (theoretically) over time cause cracks to develop.

Maybe thats not it, but ... if it was true then allowing more water to flow past the area would keep it cooler and stop vapour pockets / bubbles forming and potentially stop the cracks from developing.

It seems like a really good study that might benefit us all in the very long term if we wish to have our engines not crack and leak in the future.
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Offline RCMCY

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Re: ST1100 Cracked Block
« Reply #16 on: May 12, 2016, 03:05:44 PM »
I agree with the above, what started this was a dealer on the Gold Coast asked me to sell him a motor, when I asked why, he said a customers bike was cracked and leaking coolant, on checking my 3 all are cracked but not leaking yet.
With a laser temp it appears that high temps are also below the water line if you look at my photo in the last post you can see cracks in this area plus the usual crack from the drain plug.
I have fitted the 3/16 pipe as in the post, also used Evans coolant which they claim boils at a higher temp, I thought about playing with a 1/4 pipe but its a lot of work to remove exhaust carbies etc. and also the larger pipe may make the coolant circulate through it instead of up through the head.
So I have finished playing with this problem and can only wait to see if it helps in the long run.
Cheers
Ron
 

Offline RCMCY

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Re: ST1100 Cracked Block
« Reply #17 on: May 19, 2016, 10:02:06 PM »
Hi
I finally found an ST1100 without a cracked block after looking at 25 bikes or so, on questioning the owner who has had the bike since new being 1992 and 220,000 klms stated he only ever fills the oil to the middle of the marks in the sight glass, as there are plenty of posts re vibration with the oil to upper mark it may have something to do with the blocks cracking.
Unfortunately the bike got written off last weekend when a 4 wheel drive back ended it only minor injuries to the rider and his wife.
Cheers
Ron
 

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Re: ST1100 Cracked Block
« Reply #18 on: May 20, 2016, 09:34:26 AM »
Thanks Ron :hatwave
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Offline royst1100

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Re: ST1100 Cracked Block
« Reply #19 on: May 20, 2016, 03:57:05 PM »
no panel on mine at the moment so ill check it out
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Offline royst1100

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Re: ST1100 Cracked Block
« Reply #20 on: May 22, 2016, 03:53:11 PM »
one of the oldest ST1100 around and looks like no crack maybe small one on edge but looks like casting mark
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