Author Topic: Law of Unintended Consequences  (Read 5576 times)

Offline Greencan

  • Legendary Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 650
  • Thanked: 118 times
  • ST Legend
Law of Unintended Consequences
« on: February 25, 2014, 09:09:01 PM »
Evenin' All...

Interesting isn't it, the idea of going in one direction then implementing  a plan of action only to find what began as a problem solving exercise, turns out uncovering what you though were resolved issues :-[ ...this is exactly how replacing a rear shock on my ABS/CBS/TCS 1100 has, no is turning out.

To begin tis perhaps to best to explain that my nearly 17 year old ST, which I have had since I helped Reg Jeffery unpack from it's crate has received just basic servicing with regards to it's suspension. An occasional PRN refurbished rear, and routine replacing, cleaning and replenishment of front stanchion oils, in various weights which I have guessed it's rider's weight has changed during those years.

So the arrival of a non-OEM rear shock from Progressive is to say in the least, a break from tradition...and its installation has woken the gods of unintended consequences...which has had both front ant rear assemblies opened, altered, reassembled, test ridden  around a 24km circuit close to home before returning home to repeat all the just mentioned...on 7 occasions :eek

And has it been with it...you bet cha :thumb

So, what have these 7 occasions over the past fortnight gleamed for moi'

Ok, can't possible write it all up in one post, so I will do it in dribs and drabs...from back to front...first up The Front

- I had the forks out about a month ago, stripped completely down, thoroughly cleaned, and reassembled and filled with a 10wt Motul both stanchions with a 150mm air gap (spring)...Result, low speed damping :thumb hi-speed dampning :cuss :cuss

- So out they came emptied of all oil, flushed and refilled with 7wt Motul with 136mm air gap (L) and 140mm air gap (R) as per OEM manual...Result , low speed damping :thumbsup hi speed  :cuss (V. poor rebound / sag+) getting there!

- So as the forks were already returned to the bike and the spring free lengths were within spec, albeit with 170+k on em, do they need replacing? I think not



First job was to remove plastic and pop the cap on the RIGHT, compression leg...RATIONALE:... it is the easiest to work on insitu



Remove top cap, compression tube and packing



Find a scrape piece of aluminum and turn up an additional 5mm packing...RATIONALE:...OK free length OK, but has time & travel for the ST cost it some of it's spring



Add new packing with land to centre it onto steel packing, then re-install packing and compression tube back into stanchion...RATIONALE:...you need to ONLY pre-load the one spring because when insitu BOTH forks work as ONE



A speed brace will guide the cap to the threads, so it want X-thread. Also, it enables a easy downward pressure on the spring.

RESULT: Front end UN-weighted sag reduced to UNDER 20mm - Low speed damping :rockon - Hi speed damping  :runyay

Now IF you have an 96'-02 ST1100 ABS/CBS/TCS with what U think are crap front springs...you might wish to consider the above before rushing out to spend your hard earned $$$

However, the just mentioned results were NOT achieved by JUST working on the front end along...I HAD to accomplish it in CONJUNCTION with alterations to the new Progressive on the rear...More to follow.

Cheers for now, the can :-)
 

Offline Brock

  • Tardis Tech
  • UNBELIEVABLE "5000 Posts" Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 8720
  • Thanked: 1695 times
  • White is the fastest
Re: Law of Unintended Consequences
« Reply #1 on: February 25, 2014, 09:52:39 PM »
Hmm,

Note to self :-  get a lathe.... maybe a milling machine as well.   Better get a bloody great shed to put it in.... and a man cave...
Brock
Asian Correspondent
2003 Honda ST1100PY



Ulysses #32829
STOC #8239
OzSToc # ??
Kinross WA
 

Offline spanner

  • Blue is better .... apparently
  • NatRally 2018 - Mackay
  • Legendary "1000 Club" Member
  • *
  • Posts: 1356
  • Thanked: 181 times
  • legend in my own match box.
Re: Law of Unintended Consequences
« Reply #2 on: February 26, 2014, 06:53:35 AM »
 :popcorn

Awaiting the next instalment with anticipation .


 :think1   ......    how to get SWMBO to let me have a metal lathe, milling machine, bloody big shed AND a man cave .....    Brock .... maybe we need to get a shed like the fourex ad of years ago where four blokes all had sheds in the back corner all jopined up!!!   :rofl
F.R. #905

I.B.A. # 63008

I acknowledge the Bindal and Wulgurukaba traditional custodians of this Australian land that I work, live and play on, and pay my respect to their cultures, their ancestors and to the elders, past, present and all future generations.
 

Offline Neale

  • Legendary Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 800
  • Thanked: 2 times
  • Harrington Park, NSW
Re: Law of Unintended Consequences
« Reply #3 on: February 26, 2014, 07:38:30 AM »
:popcorn
Neale

2009 ST 1300 Candy Apple Red
 

Offline Marcus

  • Insert amusing quip here...
  • RTE Coordinator
  • Supreme "2000" Club Member
  • *
  • Posts: 3098
  • Thanked: 352 times
  • It says Stringo on my shirt
Re: Law of Unintended Consequences
« Reply #4 on: February 26, 2014, 08:35:16 AM »
Note to Self: Ride to Dickies place and drink with AJ while waiting to get my bike fixed... all with surgical gloves and sterile equipment...

Nice job mate, I know I wouldn't even attempt it
 

Offline saaz

  • Supreme "2000" Club Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 4542
  • Thanked: 41 times
  • Canberra ACT
Re: Law of Unintended Consequences
« Reply #5 on: February 26, 2014, 08:44:48 AM »
A poor man's way to do the same thing is use PVC pipe of the right diameter.  Most of the fork spring kits come with PVC spacers.

The front springs in my 1996 P were really sagged at only 80,000kms, so much so that spacers did not help.

But I would prefer to have an excuse to get a lathe  :think1
John
(Ridden on and forever in our hearts)
1996 Honda ST1100P
2014 Triumph Trophy SE
Ozstoc, STOC #7239, Farrider #461 Ulysses #061681, IBA #59143 and some others
 

Offline Biggles

  • NatRally 2018 - Mackay
  • "Top Dog" 10000 club
  • *
  • Posts: 14049
  • Thanked: 2495 times
  • Bridgeman Downs, Brisbane
Re: Law of Unintended Consequences
« Reply #6 on: February 26, 2014, 02:11:35 PM »
But I would prefer to have an excuse to get a lathe  :think1

Can you drive one?
Might need a Tech course on the basics.
For the modern man who lives in the city, riding a bike might be one of the only ways to escape the humdrum monotony. To take off and ride. To be both at one with nature and one with the bike. To feel masculine. Adam Piggott

OzSTOC #16  STOC #6135  FarR #509  IBA #54927
 

Offline Yorkie

  • Pit Crew & Recovery Specialist
  • NR2016 Group
  • Legendary "1000 Club" Member
  • *
  • Posts: 1374
  • Thanked: 202 times
  • ST Legend
Re: Law of Unintended Consequences
« Reply #7 on: February 26, 2014, 09:00:50 PM »
Hmm,

Note to self :-  get a lathe.... maybe a milling machine as well.   Better get a bloody great shed to put it in.... and a man cave...
Told you before Brock, I have the shed, you get the equipment.
Brian 0418937173
Manager York Motor Museum

In the shed
1999 ST1100A
1971 CB750K2
1980 XV750
1977 GL1000
FR#720
CMRCWA #133
York,WA

So at what age does this "old enough to know better" kick in?
I believe in the "hereafter", every time I go to the shed I have to think "what am I here after"
 

Offline Brock

  • Tardis Tech
  • UNBELIEVABLE "5000 Posts" Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 8720
  • Thanked: 1695 times
  • White is the fastest
Re: Law of Unintended Consequences
« Reply #8 on: February 26, 2014, 09:09:25 PM »
A perfect arrangement then Yorkie... :|||| :||||

I ride 2hrs to get there too tired to use it, you walk two minutes... :OldMan
Brock
Asian Correspondent
2003 Honda ST1100PY



Ulysses #32829
STOC #8239
OzSToc # ??
Kinross WA
 

Offline Greencan

  • Legendary Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 650
  • Thanked: 118 times
  • ST Legend
Re: Law of Unintended Consequences
« Reply #9 on: February 27, 2014, 08:00:58 PM »
Evenin' All...

Well you know what they say when finally it seems all is going will :'(.....this from this morning



Decided to go into town this morning and when I parked the bike noticed oil dripping on the pavement...initially thought it to be brake fluid, but a finger dip put paid to that :-[

Now I am getting some help from my local motorcycle repairer with this bike and although he put this seal in I don't blame him for its failure...it appears the seal may be dry and during the removals-n-installations of the stanchion since the seal was put in, I have no doubt the stanchion has been rotated and has picked up the seal...can happen...an unintended consequence :think1

Anyway moving on...



(Hope photobucket eventually turns these pics the right way up)...OK, if you wish to add more pre-load packing to the left (rebound), leg with it insitu, it can be done thus. But it is difficult and for the sake of removing 3 more screws you cane work on it thus...



...just be sure the stanchion doesn't slide back into the fork body...it is much easier to work on held in a soft jawed vice.



OK if you feel you have to add packing to this leg, then these 2.25mm x 37mm washers are a good way to go. In this case I added a packing just for demonstration purposes only. The 5mm turned packing I added to the Right (compression) leg (which also happens to be the leg that popped its seal this morning), was more that adequate in achieving the static sag of 20-25mm I set out to achieve.

Ok so now for the first of the unintended consequences...
Quote
I have loosened the spring pre-load to it's lowest physical limit without having it rattle about, which worked out to be 203mm...another bit of trivia I worked out was 1 complete revelation of the pre-loading nut, shortened (or lengthened), the spring by 1 to 1.5mm.


In a previous thread I stated the above after spending a day fitting the Progressive rear I got off flea-bay...Now if you read this sentence and wonder "what the hell is he trying to say"...I now have to join you :crazy Because it has absolutely no relevance whatsoever in setting up the rear shock at all...but it DID produce an unintended consequence Wot thuh

By lengthening the spring to 203mm I effectively increased the static sag to such a level I not only un-loaded the front suspension, but in all likelihood added camber to the overall rake angle and thus softened sharpness of steering :'(...now I didn't realise this at the time...I HAD TO BE SHOWN this by the friendly motorcycle repairer :-[



Static sag. Static sag I am reliably told is the distance the bike drops when it supports its own weight from distance it was, with its wheels off the ground. Simple enough concept to get I thought. So what is that ideal distance then?

Well, I really don't know. However, there is a chain of thought that that distance should be around 1" or 25mm. As I said I really don't know what is optimum for a 300kg ST, but I have to start somewhere, so 20mm became my goal...beginning to sound a familiar distance now?

I did NOT set out to add packing to the front forks, until I got the static sag to 20mm on the rear.

The above pic shows (in part), how I got to get that 20mm static sag on the rear shock. Other items I need was a tape measure, 2 reference points and a willing Wife. The Wife is importance, because she and she along will be responsible for ALL measurements...so no pressure here then Wot thuh

The red tape at the corner of the pannier cover flap was her top reference or reading point (Oh, I forgot 1300 don't have a nice neat pannier cover, do they :clap)...the bottom was the end of the tape measure in the dimple of the axle, RIGHT side. The unweighted measurement is taken with the bike on the centre stand and all other measurements were taken with the bike on its wheels with moi holding it level, while off the bike. I simple wound up the preload until I go the bike to sag only 20mm, under its own weight.

And before you ask....

- YES, factors like amount of petrol in the tank and whether the bike had just been ridden, did all effect the static sag. I have chosen as my starting reference to measure a cold bike with a full fuel load.
- YES the ride is quite firm. I am about 75kg, a Senior citizen with a Corbin saddle that has probably seen better days...YES AJ, Baz Bugle player et al , anything that has had to look at my arse for 17 years has had a hard life in itself.
- YES I will in all likelihood continue to play around with tweeking withe front stanchions, may even try varying oil weights in each stanchion (have done so in the past), but not in conjunction with spring pre-loading
- NO I wont be repairing that popped seal, I will leave it for my motorcycle repairer. He has a lot of suspension experience and I want to learn more.
- ? will I replace the spring on the Progressive. Perhaps.

Just one other point for this post is: When I refer to LOW or HI-SPEED speed damping I am referring to the suspension speed and NOT the bike speed.

 Ok, all for now...will add a bit  further in a week or so.

Cheers the can :-)





 

Offline Greencan

  • Legendary Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 650
  • Thanked: 118 times
  • ST Legend
Re: Law of Unintended Consequences
« Reply #10 on: February 27, 2014, 08:11:19 PM »
Quote
By lengthening the spring to 203mm I effectively increased the static sag to such a level I not only un-loaded the front suspension, but in all likelihood added camber to the overall rake angle and thus softened sharpness of steering :'(...now I didn't realise this at the time...I HAD TO BE SHOWN this by the friendly motorcycle repairer :-[

I meant to say CASTER not Camber...sorry bout that :-)
 

Offline alans1100

  • 1999 ST1100A
  • UNBELIEVABLE "5000 Posts" Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 6250
  • Thanked: 1161 times
  • Alan, Peterborough, SA
Re: Law of Unintended Consequences
« Reply #11 on: February 27, 2014, 08:38:47 PM »
Before I installed my Progressive Shock I checked the bike's sag with the OEM shock in place and with the pre-load set for one rider and again with me sitting on the bike.

When the new shock went in I checked the measurement again and it was within 1 or 2 mm of what I had measured. And the same after I sat on the bike (Heather measured this). Then I marked the preload ring and gave it two full turns to increase the preload to allow for most of our two up riding.

The ride is a little firm even with two up but we have one bridge in particular that tests our rear suspension to the max and we no longer bottom out at 100kph but we can still feel the shock working overtime as we cross the low points each side of bridge.
1999 :bl11  2004 :13Candy

FarRider #921- BR15, BR17, CR1

 

Offline Greencan

  • Legendary Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 650
  • Thanked: 118 times
  • ST Legend
Re: Law of Unintended Consequences
« Reply #12 on: March 01, 2014, 08:41:43 PM »
Evenin' All...

Quote
Now I am getting some help from my local motorcycle repairer with this bike and although he put this seal in I don't blame him for its failure...it appears the seal may be dry and during the removals-n-installations of the stanchion since the seal was put in, I have no doubt the stanchion has been rotated and has picked up the seal...can happen...an unintended consequence :think1


...hum still  :think1 ...I will let you decide.



Decided to empty what oil was left in the RIGHT for today...this was the result...it'd done approx 400km since it was put in....A translucent golden colour...tiny alarm bell faintly is sounding...time to perhaps troll the net :CB--



...so wondering what the length of PVC and exhaust clamps are for?

Delboy's Garage, How-To replace regular type fork seals.

Quite liked the way this Guy thinks :wink1



Well they's ya problem!




If I remember correctly, a Fellow Ozstocer told me over a beer at the Blackwood Pub that when he took apart his ABS/CBS/TCS 1100, he replaced the bushes...wish advise...they're on order...and in all likelihood explains the black fork oil...this top bush receives a pounding when the slider is repeatedly banged up against it in order to part the stanchion...the bus in a Teflon coated sintered bronze.



SPOT THE DIFFERENCE...was this a possible cause for the seal popping and spewing oil all over the front tyre. :think1

I hope at some point to be able to return to the subject of this thread...in the mean time :grin

Avagoodwkend, the can :-)


 

Offline STeveo

  • Legendary "1000 Club" Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1641
  • Thanked: 407 times
  • ST Legend
Re: Law of Unintended Consequences
« Reply #13 on: March 02, 2014, 07:59:59 AM »
Good vid, pity Delboy couldn't afford to put a vice in his garage.

 :bl11
 

Offline sargent

  • Every days a new adventure
  • Legendary Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 566
  • Thanked: 8 times
  • ST Rider - Collector, NSW
Re: Law of Unintended Consequences
« Reply #14 on: March 02, 2014, 08:40:57 AM »
 :like
Could one of our intelligent mods put this video on a sticky note in a section corresponding to it's intended category for us less intelligent people to be able to find it again.

Thank you.
 :Blow

ps...that would be one of the best explained diy vids iv'e seen, well done for posting.
Robert - White ST1100P (they're just better)
 

Offline Marcus

  • Insert amusing quip here...
  • RTE Coordinator
  • Supreme "2000" Club Member
  • *
  • Posts: 3098
  • Thanked: 352 times
  • It says Stringo on my shirt
Re: Law of Unintended Consequences
« Reply #15 on: March 02, 2014, 08:43:10 AM »
Agreed... great vid, needs to be added to the tutorial section
 

Offline Brock

  • Tardis Tech
  • UNBELIEVABLE "5000 Posts" Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 8720
  • Thanked: 1695 times
  • White is the fastest
Re: Law of Unintended Consequences
« Reply #16 on: March 02, 2014, 09:48:45 AM »
Done
Brock
Asian Correspondent
2003 Honda ST1100PY



Ulysses #32829
STOC #8239
OzSToc # ??
Kinross WA
 

Offline StinkyPete

  • Defected to a BMW
  • NR2016 Group
  • UNBELIEVABLE "5000 Posts" Member
  • *
  • Posts: 6543
  • Thanked: 2947 times
  • Blackwood, SA
Re: Law of Unintended Consequences
« Reply #17 on: March 02, 2014, 11:36:16 AM »
Good vid, pity Delboy couldn't afford to put a vice in his garage.
 :bl11

I agree.   It's a terrific video, and he's shown how the job can be done with a minimum of tools (and no vice)
IBA #59146   OzLapper 2012 & 2019

BSA M21 600cc single (1948)
Yamaha XS650  (The Black Wobbler)
Yamaha XJR1300 (Rocket Ship)
Honda ST1300 (Beautiful Bike)
BMW R1200RT (Technically Perfect)
 

Offline Greencan

  • Legendary Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 650
  • Thanked: 118 times
  • ST Legend
Re: Law of Unintended Consequences
« Reply #18 on: April 07, 2014, 04:13:17 PM »
Arvo All...

First up sorry 'bout all the missing pics...had an issue with photobucket...and it was easier just to delete my account :'(

Anyway...thought I write up a brief summary now having covered almost 3000k and after in numeral  mucking about with the front and rear ends I have ended up with a bike I don't mind riding again.

1) Any alteration and / deterioration of the rear shock will have considerable adverse effects on the front forks AND front suspension performance!!!...trouble with is with deterioration, the changes are usually too subtle to notice at the time :-[. However, with regards to the Law of unintended Consequences, my efforts of adding a variety of pre-loading shims / spacers to the front stanchions has (in this case), been a valued learning experience :thumb.

2) The instructions that came with the progressive shock, failed to mention that the assistance of a pet gorilla is almost an essential item with regards to holding the bike steady with you, and full fuel load and all you kit on it in order to correctly measure the loaded sag...subsequently, the following figures I need to fudge a but...but you'll get the drift.

3) So...assuming that the total suspended intended travel of the ST1100 rear is 120mm...I derived and settled on the following:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                     Unloaded sag - 20mm
                                                                                                                                                                                                                     Loaded sag - 38mm     
....Thus achieving the specified 1/3rd travel as stated by Progressive    
....Or to put another way...I pre-loaded the spring so now its COMPRESSED length is 185mm...(UN-Installed or Un-weighted)
....This is for my ABS 1100 with a full fuel load and with moi astride weighing 76kg  

So if you do decide to get a Progressive rear shock, these number should help you to preload the spring without too much messing about.

4) Apart from re-bushing and re-oiling the front stanchions with a 7weight oil, I replaced the copper washers that hold all the bits together located just above the axle. And after pre-loading the front springs (which are both within 1.2 to 1.4mm of the original maximum length), from 1mm to 10mm...I have settled on a 2mm added to the RIGHT compression stanchion as optimum.

Hope that helps

Lastly, though I find the rear spring still a tad too firm for my weight....but still a big improvement over the aging OEM and the Rad repaired OEM

Cheers the can :-)

                                                   
 

Offline Brock

  • Tardis Tech
  • UNBELIEVABLE "5000 Posts" Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 8720
  • Thanked: 1695 times
  • White is the fastest
Re: Law of Unintended Consequences
« Reply #19 on: April 07, 2014, 04:43:39 PM »
Quote
I find the rear spring still a tad too firm for my weight

AhHa.....

I see the problem here, you need to be about 95Kgs or more and the bike will be more perfecter... o:) o:) :EatCake
Brock
Asian Correspondent
2003 Honda ST1100PY



Ulysses #32829
STOC #8239
OzSToc # ??
Kinross WA
 

Offline Greencan

  • Legendary Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 650
  • Thanked: 118 times
  • ST Legend
Re: Law of Unintended Consequences
« Reply #20 on: April 25, 2014, 10:09:18 PM »
Addendum

After the recent trip over to Kevington for the RTE and the most enjoyable ride through to Eildon, I found it necessary to tweak the suspension to a point I am much more happier with as when the bike was pushed a bit, I found the front end lose.

The up-shot is that I have added a little more preload to the R stanchion spring, increasing it from 2mm to 3.5mm...a subtle change, but it has sharpened the front up to be a bit more in sync with the now firmer rear Progressive. Oh, the damping I left on 3. Don't think I mentioned that before.

Now the reason for these seeming pedantic diatribe is simple...before going out and spending unnecessary $$$ on replacement stanchion springs and valving etc...consider adding one to a few 5 cent washers or home made spacers (like I did), as packing to the UN-dampered cleaned and re-oiled stanchion...U might be surprised in the results ;-*.

The Maximum packing I believe you could add to the un-dampened stanchion is 6mm. ANY more may cause the spring to become coil bound. I added 10mm as an experiment and apart from adding a little more of a challenge in returning the cap, after deliberately seeking out crap roads, I think, I felt the it coil bind.

So I'll say 6mm to err on the side of caution.... I simply don't know if any further preload would be damaging!

Also it is literally a 5 minute job to add packing to the un-dampened stanchion...that's the RIGHT on the 96' onwards ABS 1100's...and the diameter of the packing (washer/s), you will need are 37mm...I placed mine between the OEM fitted washer and the tubed spacer...to access the stanchion cap (24mm), just release the top cover over the ignition (4 plastic scrivetsand 2 screws)...'crack' the cap with a long 1/2" drive knuckle bar...return cap (bike on centre stand), with a combination of 1/2" driver speed brace, 6"x 1/2" drive extension bar and 24mm socket..stand astride the bike, this gives you purchase and aligns the cap so you don't cross thread it!...lose the large 1/2" knuckle bar and wrist tighten 24mm ring spanner.

So that's it I think for this thread from moi :wink1

Cheers the can :-)