Mysterious Off/On Electrical Failure

[alans1100]

I posted here as it's an electrical issue, so any ideas on a possible cause.

This morning for some yet undiscovered reason I turned the key on and had nothing working except the clock.  Turned the key off/on again and noticed the clock go out and come back on again and still showing the correct time.

Extremely puzzled as to why after seven years of fault free electrics this would happen when they day before everything was ok. I suspected a dead battery as it's been in for three years next month and it is not unusual for a battery to fail without warning. I took the side cover off in readiness for a jump start from the car and noticed that the ignition lights had come back on so I pressed the starter and away she went......so possibly not battery after all.

Put all the bike back together and tried to start again and all ok.......so down to fuel up and bike starts ok so off down to the city to see the granddaughter. No problems starting the bike when it was time head for home. Needed to fuel up again and bike starts as usual.

About 1km down the road the ABS warning light comes on and to clear it I need to stop/restart and if all goes well the warning lights should go out. So, red light up ahead, stopped, key off, key on and no ignition lights again. Told Heather to get off before the lights changed and I pushed the bike clear of the traffic.

Nothing dead as a Do Do. Side cover off, checked all the fuses I could find and all appeared ok. After 20 mins I called Stinkypete for a little assistance. While waiting for Pete I did manage to get the ignition lights again but only for a couple seconds. We moved the bike further out of harms way and after checking it out again Heather kicked the side cover and said "see if it starts now".....key on and it all lights up again and started, (rang Peter, all ok) put bike all back together, got on, forgot the side stand before I put it in first, bike stops and no more lights (rang Pete again....not ok).

Had me beat what was wrong but I was thinking side stand switch, ignition switch or anything related. Not exactly sure what we did, but lights came back on, bike started and wasn't turned off until we got home at 7:30. On the way back home the ABS warning light comes back on about 50ks after we left the city and I just let the light flash till I got home.

At home, Heather off the bike, pressed the ABS but to stop the light from flashing, key off and key on and no lights again as I expected.  Key off/on again and it all lights up, and again it all lights up..........so key off and left sit for the night......see what happens in the morning. I rang Peter to let him know we got home ok....

 

[Yorkie]

We had a newbie not long ago with similar problems although non ABS, cause was hot/high resistance, wire to ignition, (as it heats up more resistance increases), everything goes through the ignition hence the need for ignition relay.
Hope this is some help.

[alans1100]

everything goes through the ignition hence the need for ignition relay.

Did you mean the starter relay switch? It has a 30 amp fuse.

[saaz]

The starter relay switch is a classic problem.  The plug that goes into the top of the starter relay can overheat (one of the wires is the main power feed - all the power controlled by the ignition goes up to the ignition switch and back down to the fuse box)  Over time the overheating leads to resistance. The simple solution is to clean up the connections and tighten them. It sounds like is not really bad - when that happens the starter relay melts a bit and has to be replaced.

There are 2 longer term solutions.  First and simplest, just bypass that starter relay connector with a suitably big red wire, with a 30 amp fuse inline.  The best solution is to put in a 50 amp or bigger relay that takes all the ignition switched power, locate it near the battery and feed the fuse boxes directly. The ignition switch then only powers the relay rather than feeding all the power through the ignition switch.  A bonus is that voltages remain more consistent as there is some loss through the ignition switch.

I can dig up some articles on either approach - all the info should be on mc-phoenix (look for Norm's posts).  I can talk to you about it if that would help.

I have also had the ignition switch itself physically break where it makes all the contacts, so had to replace it.

These are the two guides, the second is the simplest (apart from just cleaning up and tightening exisiting connections)

https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/54109647/Ignition%20Relay%20Bypass%20Modification%20%28%20ST1100%20%29%20%20.htm

https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/54109647/Red%20Wire%20By-Pass%20Mod%20%28%20ST1100%20%29%20%20.htm

[alans1100]

Thanks John, but I can't view the images in both links but the text is fine.

[saaz]

Both of those come from st-riders.net, in the archive of wisdom.  I use chrome so don't know why images don't come through. I just can't seem to be able to save the whole webpage as a single file, like I can in explorer.  I can try explorer to get all the images if that would help.

[alans1100]

Both of those come from st-riders.net, in the archive of wisdom.  I use chrome so don't know why images don't come through. I just can't seem to be able to save the whole webpage as a single file, like I can in explorer.  I can try explorer to get all the images if that would help.

Might have something to do with you being a member and I'm not

[saaz]

Ok these should be better. I never thought I would say internet explorer has some better features!  The pictures do help understand things.

https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/54109647/Ignition%20Relay%20Bypass%20Modification%20%28%20ST1100%20%29%20.mht

https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/54109647/Red%20Wire%20By-Pass%20Mod%20%28%20ST1100%20%29%20.mht

[pault]

have to agree with mr saaz here, had the same trouble once.

did the "red wire" thing as well as a relay to feed the fuse box, bypassing the ignition switch with all the power.
picked up nearly a volt up the front.

[alans1100]

Ok these should be better. I never thought I would say internet explorer has some better features!  The pictures do help understand things.

https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/54109647/Ignition%20Relay%20Bypass%20Modification%20%28%20ST1100%20%29%20.mht

https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/54109647/Red%20Wire%20By-Pass%20Mod%20%28%20ST1100%20%29%20.mht

That's all in HTML code.........wouldn't worry to much about it though.

I found a starter relay on e-bay for about $40 delivered from the US and after nearly 15 years it's probably over due for replacement and won't make it any worse and I'll look more into the bypass as well.

It's been raining for most of the day so I've only turned the key on/off a couple times and all seems well.

[alans1100]

Ok these should be better. I never thought I would say internet explorer has some better features!  The pictures do help understand things.

https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/54109647/Ignition%20Relay%20Bypass%20Modification%20%28%20ST1100%20%29%20.mht

https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/54109647/Red%20Wire%20By-Pass%20Mod%20%28%20ST1100%20%29%20.mht

Links worked ok from Uncle Phil on our phoenix site

[alans1100]

Over the last few days the ignition has lit up every time the key was turned on except for yesterday when I started the bike twice and on the 3rd time I couldn't get the lights on again.

I had a chance to take a look at the electrics today. Everything apart from one bared wire seemed ok.

The driving light power feed was connected to the battery and sitting on the red wire terminal though no apparent wear on the cable/terminal for the lights but removed the cable until repair completed.



The fusible link had very little signs of corrosion



The starter relay switch terminals have little to no corrosion either



The plug that sits in the top has a little bit of white on the plastic around the front RH terminal but nothing around the lower terminal.



These are the links I got from My Mc Phoenix that I couldn't get to see from Saaz

Red Wire by-pass http://www.st-riders.net/index.php?topic=7130.0 

Ignition Relay Bypass Modification  http://www.st-riders.net/index.php?PHPSESSID=mfgdk4te5kacce0k8m38ncnqg1&topic=3643.0

Wiring Diagram showing Ignition Modification. http://www.st-riders.net/aow/AOW%20-%20ST1100/Ignition%20Relay%20ByPass%20Modification%20-%20ST1100/post95_ignition_bypass_schematic.pdf

[alans1100]

On Friday (27th) afternoon, I started the bike at least 12 times (within 15 minutes) in succession without issue.
On Saturday afternoon after the bike had reached operational temp I ran through some more start ups to see what happened, no issue.

I put the bike back together, rode around the back yard for a few laps and no issue after key off/on. Two trips around the block, key off/on at home on each trip with no issue. Then a trip down to the supermarket, restart to come back home. No problems.

Today, down to the supermarket again and no problems.

Next Saturday (4th Jan) we have a 150km trip to Hawker and I'll see what happens when it comes time to leave for home. After a couple of deferred trips we finally get to go and collect the car that Heather is getting from her aunty.

[Yorkie]

You may have inadvertently fixed the problem with opening all the plugs, could be one wasn't making proper contact.

[alans1100]

Back in December 2013 after a few days the issue went away so unable to track the fault and lo and behold the issue came back a couple days ago.

The common issue might be water. Heather had washed the bike back in 2013 and a few days (Saturday) ago we had just under 50mm of rain overnight. It seems water might have found it's way into something it normally doesn't get to.

On Sunday I went down the shop and when starting the bike for the return trip all the idiot lights flickered on (starter relay ???) and off a few times before the bike started. On Monday there was nothing when I turned the key......so I put the cover back on the bike and left it for Tuesday.

Back to the bike on Tuesday, turn the key and it lights up, started it and let it run for a little while. So far it looks okay but makes it awfully hard to trace where that fault if any is.

[Biggles]

You could give it a good hosing down until it quits, then snoop around with the multi-meter until you find where the blockage is.

[Brock]

The water could be getting into the ignition switch or handle bar wiring, that could cause a few problems

[Shiney]

Could it be a dodgy connection in the kill switch?

[Shaun]

My old ST1100 had similar intermittent issues with the electrics, where it would work most of the time, but then every so often be dead, or I would ride along and the ABS light would just start flashing, and it was all to do with poor connections in leads coming off the battery.

The kill switch is also susceptible to gumming up, as I am finding out after all this moisture with the VFR (exact same switch assembly as the ST's)

[alans1100]

The water could be getting into the ignition switch or handle bar wiring, that could cause a few problems

The kill switch is also susceptible to gumming up, as I am finding out after all this moisture with the VFR (exact same switch assembly as the ST's)

I'm not sure if it did anything or not but I spayed all the electrical switches with RP7.......I'll put the starter relay on the to do list as after 15 years a new one won't hurt.

[alans1100]

Ordered a new starter relay today as it seems the electrical issue resurfaced today.

With a hot day and no water in site. Turned key on and all ok.......went to start and failed to fire up 1st time then all the electrics go off. Turn key on now and clock goes off and nothing else works. Clock goes back on when key turned off.

I'll check fuses later when it cools down a little; maybe in the next day or two.

[Brock]

That sounds like a battery failure. Measure the voltage at the battery  with a multimeter as you press the starter button. It shouldnt drop below 10 volts if its any good.

Check the main battery earth connection

[alans1100]

Battery is something I've been expecting to fail anytime since it's been in since Jan 2012 though it seemed ok yesterday but that doesn't mean much as they can fail anytime. When I check the fuses I'll see what happens when I hook it up to the car battery with the jumper leads.

[Brock]

As I always say, Start at the easy bit first, then go to the next easiest. Its terrible to pull the engine only to find it was the battery.. :P

[alans1100]

That sounds like a battery failure. Measure the voltage at the battery  with a multimeter as you press the starter button. It shouldnt drop below 10 volts if its any good.

Check the main battery earth connection

Starter relay and all the other fuses checked out ok, Pulled the plug off the starter relay and a small amount of corrosion on one pin but not enough to cause any hassle but new starter relay on the way from the UK anyway.

Put the jumper leads on from the car and got ignition lights when key turned on. Started car then started bike which is a plus but remove jumper leads and bike is dead when key turned on. Conclusion; battery finally failed after being on the bike 3 years and 10 months.

Luckily the tyre dealer in town has one in stock if not can get one in for me so saves a trip to Port Augusta.