Author Topic: Final drive ?  (Read 5913 times)

Offline Frenchy

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Final drive ?
« on: December 22, 2016, 07:48:18 PM »
 Hi - read all the older posts re final drive and just want to ask if pinion brg retaining nut can be removed without special tools - any advice is appreciated
Like most others I only found it was nackered when I put a new back tyre on at 94000klm
I got a bike shop to r&r the rear wheel and fit a new tyre when I got the bike 3 years ago & 18000 Klm from a T30 (it was a slick by then) Big mistake I did not remove the wheel to check or grease the splines during that time. How it is still driving has got me beat.
Frenchy

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Offline Yorkie

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Re: Final drive ?
« Reply #1 on: December 22, 2016, 08:59:38 PM »
The cost probably negates the repair, parts are around $1200, you will have to decide if the ST is worth it, labor will probably be $800-$1k.
A lot of 1100's are getting to this stage of life now and most will end up at the tip, wreckers are not usually interested.

In reply to your question I removed mine a few years ago without any special tools but don't remember how.
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In the shed
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Offline alans1100

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Re: Final drive ?
« Reply #2 on: December 22, 2016, 09:08:55 PM »
I bought a used final drive and installed that. The one I bought was for an 1100 so I had to swap the gear case over to suit my 1100A

http://ozstoc.com/index.php?topic=5850.msg66057#msg66057

There's a couple on ebay but the splines don't look to good but good ones do come up from time to time.

http://www.ebay.com.au/sch/i.html?_from=R40&_trksid=p2060353.m570.l1313.TR0.TRC0.H0.XST1100+Final+Drive.TRS0&_nkw=ST1100+Final+Drive&_sacat=0
« Last Edit: December 22, 2016, 09:13:49 PM by alans1100 »
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Offline Frenchy

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Re: Final drive ?
« Reply #3 on: December 23, 2016, 12:23:12 AM »
The cost probably negates the repair, parts are around $1200, you will have to decide if the ST is worth it, labor will probably be $800-$1k.
A lot of 1100's are getting to this stage of life now and most will end up at the tip, wreckers are not usually interested.

In reply to your question I removed mine a few years ago without any special tools but don't remember how.

Thanks Yorkie - got the bits from Honda dealer in Bunbury $860 - brgs ex Japan and local brg shops can't supply based on sizes - need to repair during Xmas break as this is daily work commute. Still in good nick. photo att - hopefully
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Offline Yorkie

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Re: Final drive ?
« Reply #4 on: December 23, 2016, 08:47:12 PM »
You got a good deal there, The Hondashop charged me around the same price and that was special trade
Brian 0418937173
Manager York Motor Museum

In the shed
1999 ST1100A
1971 CB750K2
1980 XV750
1977 GL1000
FR#720
CMRCWA #133
York,WA

So at what age does this "old enough to know better" kick in?
I believe in the "hereafter", every time I go to the shed I have to think "what am I here after"
 

Offline Greencan

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Re: Final drive ?
« Reply #5 on: December 27, 2016, 09:01:15 AM »
Mornin’g Frenchie et al…

Quote
Hi - read all the older posts re final drive and just want to ask if pinion brg retaining nut can be removed without special tools - any advice is appreciated


…short and long answer is: Yes!

However, the Pinion nut (14) in pic below can be readily removed and re-installed using a good impact tool, either battery or pneumatic as it’s torque is 80ft/lb.



The important bit is the bearing retainer ring (18) as it torque is only 1.75  - 3.5 inch/pounds. So be sure to mark its position clearly relative to the casing its precise position. So that when it is returned, it is in the same position and thus (in all likelihood), within the about sited torque settings. Oh, best you check that setting in the OEM manual, as that was from memory. The pinion nut I am sure of, it’s not much, but it is important nonetheless.

Resist all temptation to replace only the crown gear! Your new crown and pinion gears are ground matched and are a pair.



Work on a wood bench (preferred), or place all components sequentially on an old towel and keep your tools away, these gears are very brittle, so a dropped heavy tool will chip them. A good vice with soft jaws is handy, but not essential.

The crown gear is removed first, this makes the pinion removal easier with the lees weight to handle…a light hammer and a clean punch is all that is needed to remove the bearing retainer and return it to its original position. Honda do provide a variety of shims for this job, but of the two final drives I have repaired, using the original has provided both the OEM spec back-lash and a little bearing blue has shown good contact. So no reason to think yours will be different.

The bearings ought to be able to be re-used without issue. I’d be reluctant to replace them with anything other than OEM, though as I said, can’t see any reason to do so.

Good Luck,

Cheers the can:-)

PS...note the orange dye used to indicate the surface contact post grinding. This is what your to achieve post installation, hence my added diatribe / importance surrounding that retaining collar (18).

« Last Edit: December 27, 2016, 09:06:59 AM by Greencan »
 
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Offline Frenchy

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Re: Final drive ?
« Reply #6 on: December 28, 2016, 12:23:10 PM »
 :thumbsup
Cheers Greencan,
Yes reusing BRG's - plan to get started in the next day or so, your tips have been very helpful and I will post the outcome & photos.
I have been riding it since finding the issue during the tyre change, being as gentle on the throttle as I can
These splines are as thin as cigarette papers, how it keeps driving is beyond me.
Going to recheck splines / grease every 5k Klms

Thanks also  Yorkie / alans1100



Frenchy

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Offline Greencan

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Re: Final drive ?
« Reply #7 on: December 29, 2016, 10:27:06 PM »
Quote
These splines are as thin as cigarette papers

....that being so, out of interest, what condition is the rear wheel drive flange in? I expect they is more than just a section or two of galling. But are you able to return a new 'O' ring to its groove and still fit the final drive coupling, without destroying the 'O' ring; or is there not enough groove left to seat an 'O' ring?

If you cant re-fit an 'O' ring, or the old one (if it still exists), is also worn paper thin on 1/3rd or greater of its circumfrence, let me know and I might well have something that can help you out.

Its critical, having spent considerable $$$ on replacement gears and (presumably also the new), final drive coupling, it is supported snugly on the wheel flange. Measure the wheel flange diameter, should be just a tad under 65mm...64mm or less and it will need to be addressed. Otherwise, the drive splines will NOT run concentrically, regardless of lubrication and you'll be back where you are now in 50-80k kms. Also, remember to align the final drive after you return it to the bike...plenty written on how to do that about...easy, but a little time consuming.

Again, good luck with it.

Cheers the can :-)

 

Offline alans1100

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Re: Final drive ?
« Reply #8 on: December 29, 2016, 10:41:53 PM »
Also, remember to align the final drive after you return it to the bike...plenty written on how to do that about...easy, but a little time consuming.

Poorly designed this unit - would have made sense to have a couple locating notches or something to make sure the drive unit is aligned rather than the way we have to do it.
1999 :bl11  2004 :13Candy

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Offline Greencan

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Re: Final drive ?
« Reply #9 on: December 30, 2016, 07:35:29 AM »
Mornin' Alan et al...

Quote
Poorly designed this unit - would have made sense to have a couple locating notches or something to make sure the drive unit is aligned rather than the way we have to do it.

...not sure about that. I concede that once it's returned and the retaining bolts are just nipped up you can rotate the entire assembly several degrees either side of centre. Misalignment here however will accelerate noticable wear on the cush drove alloy blocks and the rubbers themselves, as the 5 flange coupling drive posts are on a greater orbit than the flange boss. Though, once the cush block assembles have been flogged out by a misaligned final drive, it obvious stands to reason this angled drive will inturn, compound wheel flange wear too.

The reason that the installation is the way it is, is to accommodate for the normal wear and tear on the final drive cush assembles through normal (or accelerated), back-lash wear (like trailer towing), so periodically you can release and reset the final drive alignment to decrease cush drive and lower cushion (shock/spring), bush/shocker wear.

I re-align final drives about every 3rd tyre change, I dont tow. As a guide, take note of the wear within the alloy cush drive blocks every tyre change, they will indicate alignment wear. I am sure you (& others), will have observed how the flange coupling posts wear the inside of the blocks. Note also how the cushion (shocker), bushes are wearing. Tweeking final drive alignment from time to time will reduce this and both cushion (shocker), wear and tear.

So, this is why I think the present set up, albeit adding to rountine maintenance, isn't such a bad thing.

Just a thought.

Cheers the can:-)

PS...and have a great new years :beer
 

Offline alans1100

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Re: Final drive ?
« Reply #10 on: December 30, 2016, 11:26:39 AM »


So, this is why I think the present set up, albeit adding to rountine maintenance, isn't such a bad thing.


Hi, not sure you're aligning everything every 3rd tyre change does much. When aligning the drive after refitting all you're doing is aligning the drive up so that the two axle holes line up and the wheel is vertical.

When the axle goes through the drive unit it doesn't touch the drive flange (spider) and goes into the RH bearing, out the other side, through the brake mount and if all lines up into the LH swing arm. The axle will not go through if the drive unit is out of alignment.

The cush drive is merely a shock absorber though if the rubbers and inserts are worn it could cause the issue with spline wear that we often see.



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Offline Frenchy

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Re: Final drive ?
« Reply #11 on: January 02, 2017, 01:30:53 PM »
 :thumbsup
 I'm on the road again !! - thanks everyone for the tips and advice
First run up the road I though I missed a gear - nope just no clunking back lash
Certainly a different ride experience

Like a novice bolted it all up without considering diff alignment - dismantled & went through the process again tightened the four bolts after axle was installed etc

Frenchy

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Offline Frenchy

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Re: Final drive ?
« Reply #12 on: January 02, 2017, 01:44:33 PM »
Quote
These splines are as thin as cigarette papers

....that being so, out of interest, what condition is the rear wheel drive flange in? I expect they is more than just a section or two of galling. But are you able to return a new 'O' ring to its groove and still fit the final drive coupling, without destroying the 'O' ring; or is there not enough groove left to seat an 'O' ring?

If you cant re-fit an 'O' ring, or the old one (if it still exists), is also worn paper thin on 1/3rd or greater of its circumfrence, let me know and I might well have something that can help you out.

Its critical, having spent considerable $$$ on replacement gears and (presumably also the new), final drive coupling, it is supported snugly on the wheel flange. Measure the wheel flange diameter, should be just a tad under 65mm...64mm or less and it will need to be addressed. Otherwise, the drive splines will NOT run concentrically, regardless of lubrication and you'll be back where you are now in 50-80k kms. Also, remember to align the final drive after you return it to the bike...plenty written on how to do that about...easy, but a little time consuming.

Again, good luck with it.

Cheers the can :-)

Thanks - measured new inside diam flange 64.75
Outside wheel hub 63.85 (difficult to be specific could not square the vernier) - oring groove still serviceable -slight burr on flange face and minor galling outer diam
Tidied it all up -oring maintains position during trial fit

May need to consider replacement wheel in the future or sleeve it as suggested
Frenchy

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Offline Greencan

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Re: Final drive ?
« Reply #13 on: January 03, 2017, 01:55:30 PM »
Well done that man :thumbs

Quote
Thanks - measured new inside diam flange 64.75
Outside wheel hub 63.85 (difficult to be specific could not square the vernier) - oring groove still serviceable -slight burr on flange face and minor galling outer diam
Tidied it all up -oring maintains position during trial fit

May need to consider replacement wheel in the future or sleeve it as suggested

That's sounds OK...as long as that drive coupling isn't floating about on that wheel (cush drive blocks removed), like a toot in a bucket...it is difficult to precisely measure...but essential if the wheel is to be turned / milled and re-flanged.

No what I was suggesting was, I have a purpose shim that I could have sent you if your wheel flange was kaput...would have meant some hand fettling on your part with a few grades of wet-n-dry and you would have lost the provision of that 'O'ring...but routine cleaning and re-lubing with a  teflon or nickle base grease would see no further wheel flange wear. Twas a mod I made about 20 years back that worked perfectly (if routinely maintained), for years...I only began to mill and re-flange these wheels about 4 years back...did the first one with JN (Saaz).

Cheers the can :-)
« Last Edit: January 03, 2017, 02:00:26 PM by Greencan »
 
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Offline Yorkie

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Re: Final drive ?
« Reply #14 on: January 03, 2017, 09:22:14 PM »
I use a piece of 0.5mm steel pallet strapping which took up the slack, no probs at all, on the GL1000 the splines lock into each other without any wear pieces and there is no sign of wear, the CB750 has cush rubbers, not sure why Honda put them in and then removed and the returned although story on CB750 is they wanted some cushioning through the gears, I would think the chain would provide that
Brian 0418937173
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In the shed
1999 ST1100A
1971 CB750K2
1980 XV750
1977 GL1000
FR#720
CMRCWA #133
York,WA

So at what age does this "old enough to know better" kick in?
I believe in the "hereafter", every time I go to the shed I have to think "what am I here after"
 

Offline Greencan

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Re: Final drive ?
« Reply #15 on: January 04, 2017, 06:30:27 PM »
Evenin' Yorkie et al...

Quote
I use a piece of 0.5mm steel pallet strapping which took up the slack, no probs at all,


Yes, your quite right...





...this is one I made many years ago that I have no further use for and as you mentioned, it did (does), the job well. The only mod I added over the years was a a high nickle (ani-galling) content grease.

This one was in use for about 10 years. I think it work as well as it did because if provided an additional movement, if you get my drift. i.e. the potential space between it and the coupling plus that of the wheel flange land.

This was the shim I'd offered to Frenchy.

I don't know anything about goldwings, but the CB750 you make mention of, if it was the one that used a duplex chain to transfer drive from the engine to gearbox...then I thought the the gearbox input shaft gear (the larger of the two), had a dozen hard compound rubber blocks riveted in between the the dual gears to dampen the engine effects on the gears...happy to stand corrected.

Anyway, that as it may...the one remaining shim I have is available to anyone who needs it.

Cheers the can :-)
« Last Edit: January 04, 2017, 06:34:43 PM by Greencan »
 

Offline Yorkie

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Re: Final drive ?
« Reply #16 on: January 04, 2017, 09:00:54 PM »
CB 750 has a "damper set" in the rear wheel
Brian 0418937173
Manager York Motor Museum

In the shed
1999 ST1100A
1971 CB750K2
1980 XV750
1977 GL1000
FR#720
CMRCWA #133
York,WA

So at what age does this "old enough to know better" kick in?
I believe in the "hereafter", every time I go to the shed I have to think "what am I here after"
 
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Offline Frenchy

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Re: Final drive ?
« Reply #17 on: January 11, 2017, 08:01:25 PM »
Evenin' Yorkie et al

May need to consider replacement wheel in the future or sleeve it as suggested[/quote

No what I was suggesting was, I have a purpose shim that I could have sent you if your wheel flange was kaput...would have meant some hand fettling on your part with a few grades of wet-n-dry and you would have lost the provision of that 'O'ring...but routine cleaning and re-lubing with a  teflon or nickle base grease would see no further wheel flange wear. Twas a mod I made about 20 years back that worked perfectly (if routinely maintained), for years...I only began to mill and re-flange these wheels about 4 years back...did the first one with JN (Saaz).

Cheers the can :-)
job well. The only mod I added over the years was a a high nickle (ani-galling) content grease

This was the shim I'd offered to Frenchy.



Anyway, that as it may...the one remaining shim I have is available to anyone who needs it.

Cheers the can :-)
[/quote]

Greencan, appreciate your offer for the shim and yes thanks if it is still available....
Frenchy

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Offline Frenchy

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Re: Final drive ?
« Reply #18 on: February 04, 2017, 10:51:09 AM »
 |-i
Installed the drive flange shim that Greencan sent,  thanks mate.
Fitted perfectly - took all the movement out which now takes the load off the splines, drive pegs & dampers.

When I initially installed the new gear set I noticed the centre support spigot was missing (photo att) but it had to go in so I could get to work.
After fitting the shim I sent some photos to the Honda dealer I bought the parts from. Apparently, there are a couple of different p/n for gear sets.......new spigot has been ordered.
Crown wheel out to press in the spigot.........should have put a wing nut on the axle....
Frenchy

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Offline Greencan

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Re: Final drive ?
« Reply #19 on: February 07, 2017, 07:15:12 AM »
Mornin' Peter et al...

That spigot you have a pic of is just the 'O' ring holder to aid in retaining the grease to where it is needed, the splines. And should easily pull out from the old crown gear with wriggle and a pair of plyers and will need only to be tapped into the replacement crown gear.

Cheers, the can :-)
 

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Re: Final drive ?
« Reply #20 on: February 07, 2017, 03:44:33 PM »
What a great informative thread....well done chaps   :thumbsup



Cheers
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Offline Yorkie

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Re: Final drive ?
« Reply #21 on: February 07, 2017, 08:44:00 PM »
Mornin' Peter et al...

That spigot you have a pic of is just the 'O' ring holder to aid in retaining the grease to where it is needed, the splines. And should easily pull out from the old crown gear with wriggle and a pair of plyers and will need only to be tapped into the replacement crown gear.

Cheers, the can :-)
I had to get a new one as neither myself or the Honda shop were unable to get it out
Brian 0418937173
Manager York Motor Museum

In the shed
1999 ST1100A
1971 CB750K2
1980 XV750
1977 GL1000
FR#720
CMRCWA #133
York,WA

So at what age does this "old enough to know better" kick in?
I believe in the "hereafter", every time I go to the shed I have to think "what am I here after"
 

Offline Greencan

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Re: Final drive ?
« Reply #22 on: February 08, 2017, 07:39:29 AM »
Quote
I had to get a new one as neither myself or the Honda shop were unable to get it out

I am suprised the Honda shop weren't able to get it out, as all they needed to do was to heat up the knackered gear with a torch and it would have fell out! Another method would have been to lay the gear on a flat surface, 'O' ring retainer-side up, then spray in a generous amount of a penatrative around the outside of the retainer so it pooled and occasionally tap the retainer with a steel hammer to aide the penatration of the spray over a few hours, this too ought to have got it out.

Anyway, your on the right track now and thats all that matters.

Cheers, the can:-)
 

Offline Frenchy

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Re: Final drive ?
« Reply #23 on: February 15, 2017, 07:48:57 PM »
 :beer
Mornin' Peter et al...

That spigot you have a pic of is just the 'O' ring holder to aid in retaining the grease to where it is needed, the splines. And should easily pull out from the old crown gear with wriggle and a pair of plyers and will need only to be tapped into the replacement crown gear.

Cheers, the can :-)

All done - spigot went in easily tap - tap (had a big knockometer ready just in case)
So check again in few thousand k's to monitor grease etc
Happy days
Thanks again Greencan - I owe you a few green cans

 ++
Frenchy

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