OzSTOC
Honda ST1100 Section => Oils, Oil Filters & Servicing ST1100 => Topic started by: rocketeer on March 03, 2012, 01:11:48 AM
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Hi guys,
I've opened this thread to start the obvious conversation. To give you some background, for the last 8 years I've both researched, and been formally trained in lubrication- including physical make up, practical application including analysis and fault finding. I work with a Brisbane based oil company who retail their own products to a standard quite simply far higher than most available on the Australian market. Their name is PM Lubricants. There is only one other I am aware of that consistently comes close. I am a draftsman first and foremost, but hoping to work with this company more as time goes on.
I'm more than happy for you guys to ask questions in here, the aim of the game here is to educate. There is so much mis-education on the subject, I am hoping to help clear some of it up. Some of what I say will go against accepted logic, but for good reason. If you ask something I am not sure about, I will happily say so and if I can find the answer for you. I am happy to cover topics from lubrication basics, terminologies and what is available, to filtration, and fault finding.
As I get more time, I'll throw in as much information as I can, hopefully not boring anyone but for those interested, it should hopefully clear up some things. For those not interested, asking 'what is best'- I will answer honestly, but it's almost always going to be the same brand, the specific product is what will change.
So- here goes.
Lesson 1. (sorry couldn't help myself).
Synthetics vs minerals. Very quickly, both have their place. Which is better? That comes down to a bunch of questions, including what specifically is the oil's intended purpose. At this point in time, against popular belief, we are able to create a far better performing mineral based oil than any synthetic. The technology just hasn't caught up yet. How do I know? Years of oil analysis, customer comments, and field research has proven time and time again that phrase that I like to use- "It isn't the base that defines quality, rather the quality of the base and additives, and the correct additives that defines an oil's quality". Just because it is 'synthetic', doesn't mean it's better.
Motorcycle gearboxes are quite the opposite to car and truck boxes when it comes to viscosities. In a car, changing to a lighter viscosity oil will improve shifting (Redline shockproof is the best I know of for removing notchy gearchange). In a bike however, higher viscosity oils and higher load carrying ability- which all cushion against the shock of gearchange will reduce notchiness.
Notice on some oils, in high heat how gearchanges start to get notchy after say 3,000 or 3,500 km? That is an indication the oil is breaking down. I have put late model japanese sportsbikes, mostly Yamaha 1000's onto 25w60 to cure gearchange issues, after going through gradually increasing viscosity.
This ties into how I specify viscosities- if there is an issue like notchy gearchange, I will likely increase viscosity to help smooth that out.
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http://www.machinerylubrication.com/Read/28761/storing-grease-to-avoid-bleed-separation- (http://www.machinerylubrication.com/Read/28761/storing-grease-to-avoid-bleed-separation-)
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Hi Rocketeer.
:hatwave
Nice rightup i agree with you on the synthetic oils the only times i have had troubles with engines has been with synthetic oil, with a number of years racing dirt bikes. In two strokes it allows rust to form in bottom end then failer,in four strokes more ring wear more oil consumtion.
For a number of years I have run Caltex Delo 400 in small petrol engines ( I buy it in 205s to run in trucks and machinery) and have not had any problems with them eg Honda fire fighters.
What are your thoughts on using Delo in St 1300 honda or KTM 530,would it affect clutch , engine or gear box performance.
Regards
Wal
:slvr13
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Good write up, and an interesting link to greases.
Does you Mob produce an oil suitable for the STs, and if so where can it be sourced? If the price is reasonable then I would be prepared to give it a go,
On filtering, are the Repco/Ryco filters good enough, or are the Honda ones better (but reaal expensive)
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Hi guys, thanks for that.
Wal- what I've found isn't quite the same as you explain when dealing with synthetics- although run methanol with synthetic I've noticed some interesting things. It's more to do with load carrying ability, or the ability of the oil to keep metal parts separated under heat and load- in most circumstances that load carrying ability is higher in a mineral base particulary 4 stroke engine, gear and diff oils. Again it comes down to building the oils properly, as opposed to mineral or synthetic base. In some circumstances, depending on a machine's additive specific requirements from a manufacturer, a synthetic may have an advantage- as in some auto transmissions.
Delo is a general duty commercial quality oil. It shouldn't adversely affect wet clutch, gear or engine to a great extent, unless you are talking long term. It's a product built to a retail pricepoint, as such additive packs are generally sacrificed to maintain retail shelf price. Hence why when I walk into a workshop running similar products I make what seem to be outrageous claims- from fuel economy benefits, to extended oil drains, to reduced temperatures and wear rates. What I am saying is yes you can run it, I personally wouldn't but if it's cheap and available...
Brock- yes we do, to specify an oil for a bike I need several things- make, model, condition (knocks, rattles, oil burn, notchy gears etc) and intended use (racebike, everyday rider, long distance rider). Being in WA makes it harder to get, though I am happy to work something out with transport costs to get it to you. I have plans of making it more accessable around Australia, but that is at least a year off.
Filter wise- Ryco's are probably as efficient as the Honda filters. They are both a cellulose filter medium- imagine a piece of unrefined paper and the fibres randomly forming holes for the oil to pass through. Synthetic media filters, K&N is the most popular and reasonably priced, are far more efficient filters, removing more of the smaller particles. Better again on paper is the Amsoil filters- but they are harder to get, and cost more- as much as $35 per unit. If I end up sending you oil, I can organise a filter for you if it makes life easier. Price of PM Lubricants is around $12 per litre- a touch under $65 for 5 litres. We also cater for bikes with separate gearboxes and oil filled final drives with great results.
What particle size causes the most damage in an everyday engine?
Between 2 and 10 micron- small enough to pass through most spin on filters, large enough to get into bearing spaces- grinding against the surfaces. Bikes are far harder to remove this size particle, whereas bypass filters, centrifical filters and depth filters can be fitted to remove these particles easily. Even passenger vehicles with good filtration fitted can go for 100,000km between oil changes!
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Hi,
I used to work for a petrol reseller and was amazed that joe or mary bloggs had no idea of what oil to put in their car/bike. Most had not even noticed that grade on the oil filler cap or looked in the owner book. The oils we had on hand would have been suitable for most and of course the other thing to consider is "Any oil is better than no oil".
Bikes on the hand was a little different, some wanted mineral, some wanted synthetic, some believed that once you went synthetic you couldnt go back to mineral, some wanted two stroke, some four.
For me, it's not a problem. I buy what's on special at the time I need it. All the oil I use meets or exceeds Honda recomondation for my 1100, even poor old black and gold stuff (used a few times). Not in order but I've had Mobil XHP (just found out it's for diesels), Valvoline XLD, Shell Advance 4T(a couple of times) and now it as Shell Helix Ultra because I sold the car the oil was going into. With all the talk about diesel oil on here so I 'll try that on my next oil change.
Oil and filter normally get changed every 12000kms (only missed once), I have not yet needed to add oil between changes. Currently 139500kms on bike.
What I find amusing is the marine/motorcycle two stoke thing these days. I seem to remember the old two stoke pump in some garages, select your mix ratio and pumped it in. Didn't matter if it was a boat a bike or a lawn mower, it was all the same. That was before separate oil tanks on two stroke bikes.
I don't have a problem with car gear boxes as my last five have been auto's, the last two being Fords which have transmissions that the owner can't check. That reminds me, I should do an oil change on the Territory, it's been in over 30,000kms. Wonder where the filter is located on the motor?
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Hey rocketeer,
I run Rimula X in a 2002 CBR1100XX & change it every 5,000km's.
The seals, plugs, clutch & gearbox are all in great condition.
I also have a 2003 ST1300 with 80,000 km's on it.
I live in North Qld, were it is hot, or hot & wet. Joh Bjelke-Petersen abolished winter many years ago :p
I have been running Motul 5100 15W50, in the belief that a thicker oil will compensate for the heat.
The recommended change interval for this oil is 10,000km, so I just put another filter on at 5,000km.
Some others argue that a hotter engine requires a thinner oil, not a thicker oil, as the engine clearances decrease.
After the last plug change I noticed black carbon build up on top of the pistons.
I have also had to replace two external seals, which were weeping.
So questions arising are:
Should I switch to a thinner oil up here in the tropics?
Should I change to a mineral based oil so it will burn off easier in the combustion chamber?
Should I just run diesel oils in both bikes & change them at 5,000km's?
Will my fellow bikers think I'm really cool & trendy if I run oil based on coconut juice? (There's alot of them up here)
Thanks for taking the time to post on the OzSTOC forum. :popcorn
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Rendog,
If your bike has a diesel engine, then you can run it on Coconut oil :hatwave :hatwave
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Hey rocketeer,
While I don't have much time for the typical oil thread where no-one knows anything, this could be interesting. I'm always keen to learn something new!
At the moment, my belief is that engine failure will not be the thing that puts my bike off the road. The ST11's seem to run forever, I'm confident that it'll run for far longer than I will need it to regardless of what oil I put in. Of course I am willing to be educated!
My last bike was a 1998 CBR900RR. I bought it with under 9,000 miles on the clock and sold it with about 52,000. I used cheap motorcycle oil from Hein Gericke for all of those miles - it used to cost me £20 for a filter and 4 litres of 10w40 semi-pathetic oil. The bike was running beautifully when I sold it. So at the moment I am not convinced that there are benefits to expensive oils - again I am prepared to be educated!
Since then, I've done a bit of reading on oil, here: http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/motor-oil-101/ (http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/motor-oil-101/)
In a nutshell, and from what I can remember, the author suggests the following: (this might be wrong as it was a while since I read this!)
- 'thinner' oils are better as they take less time to reach the correct viscosity for lubrication.
- 'thinner' oils are best thought of as less thick when cold, rather than thinner at operating temperature.
- since most engine wear occurs at start-up, it makes sense to use a 'thinner' oil to reduce the time it takes to reach optimum temperature.
This reading hasn't changed my choice of oil dramatically. I was going to use the Penrite 15w-50 diesel oil, instead I went for the 5w-40 motor oil. They are only $5 different in price, so I thought I'd try the one which, based on my reading, was the better grade. The 5w-40 is also listed as both car and bike use by Penrite.
I found it interesting that perhaps the higher viscosity oil could be better for the gearbox on a motorcycle. So far, I've not found the gearchange to be compromised, but perhaps I'll try the diesel oil next time to compare.
I'd be interested in any comments....!!
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Hi guys thanks for the interest in this thread. I apologize if I am slow to reply, I prefer to answer as best as I can, sometimes it's easier to wait until I have the time to sit down and go through a response.
Alans 1100, that's great it works for you, I really don't want to get into "you MUST use the best of the best" if you have a system that just works. The TCW3 rating for marine and snow vehicles was brought into effect to reduce environmental impact from old, heavily oiled 2 strokers. Nowadays some 2 strokes have advanced considerably, and intended use comes into effect when choosing which oil to use. Thankfully, 2 stroke oils have caught up as well, for example do one which caters for the most highly strung bike or surf race boat, to garden equipment. It's only the ratio that changes- some racebikes have (very carefully) pushed out past 250:1 successfully. As far as the autos on the fords- they are prone to overheating, by 60,000 k's the oil is usually black. The level is checked by a bolt on the side of the box. I tell everyone that it is well worthwhile looking at trans coolers if driven hard, towing, or in constant hot climate, or long idling (as in taxis) or if you intend on keeping the vehicle past say 200,000km. I've just seen so very many failures. My BA XR8 copped the biggest PWR cooler and a full flush onto PM fluid before I even took posession of it- because I do expect a lot from it.
Rendog
one of the things we specify for is exactly what you are talking about- ambient temperature. If we are specifying oil for constant high temperatures, we will specify a higher viscosity. Yes, metal grows with heat. But oil thins more than metal grows as heat increases, hence why a lot of vehicles we have running in Mt Isa for example are 25w60- our test results show taking into account ambient temperature can positively affect wear rates. Good work by the way changing the filter half way, that practice has it's obvious advantages in renewing filtration, but also replacing half a litre or so which tends to top up additive packs in an oil if it is not completely worn, but showing some age.
Your carbon on piston crowns. Firstly, take a look athttp://www.quickfds.com/out/16134-33784-23690-013962.pdf (http://www.quickfds.com/out/16134-33784-23690-013962.pdf), being the MSDS for the Motul oil you are running. It's not a synthetic, as shown by the breakdown of components- it's solvent and hydrotreated mineral oil for the most part, with some synthetic additives. So it's not so much whether the oil is a synthetic. I have noticed highly strung engines which are ridden for performance and always run on BP Ultimate tend to not have these deposits. The most successful way I have found in reducing these in everyday vehicles is by using PM800 fuel system conditioner- added at 1:1000 ratio, it cleans everything from the fuel tank through injectors and carbs, valves, piston crowns and to the exhaust. I don't know of the effectiveness of other additives, other than to say I know a few that are quite nasty chemicals- mostly the ones with a warning similar to "do not use more than 3 times in a service period".
Des- I have read a good part of that article. I have a fairly detailed response coming for you, if you read what I have written already you will have an idea where I am going. I will include some interesting analysis to back some of my response, because even though in a large part I agree with the article (especially how he explains viscosity in layman's terms) there are some assumptions made, based on current popular thinking. I'll be back soon, I've spent the day looking after a couple of preteens on dirtbikes and sleep is calling me.
Brad
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Rendog I was just thinking I should mention I have no issue with the viscosity you have gone with, infact it wouldn't be unusual at all to go for 20w50 in your machine, and push it out much further between services, providing oil testing was done.
Did you know?
If you overheat an engine, the oil is the first casualty before any abnormal wear occurs. Mineral and synthetic oils are designed to operate within a heat range. Synthetics typically handle higher heat, though a mineral based oil which is built properly will handle more heat than the average engine experiences, even with cooling system failiure. One of the additives of Mineral oils is long chain polymers, which expand when heated like a coil spring, allowing for what we now call multi grade oils. Overheating these polymers has an effect similar to overstretching a spring- except these tend to collapse, effectively dropping the oil's ability to maintain film strength under heat and load. Once this occurs, internal forces push metal parts together to contact, which creates more heat, wear particles which grind at polished surfaces, and the cycle begins which ultimately leads to mechanical failure. Building an oil, particularly a mineral based oil which can not only handle this high heat but also high loads at the same time isn't difficult, but it does add cost to the manufacturing process. Hence why on most oils available, if you lose your cooling system, you damage your engine. I personally know of more than a handful of engines which have lost cooling, 2 were in race conditions, both of which no visible damage could be found on teardown inspection. One was a 2008 GSXR1000, one was a V8 ski boat, which still holds several titles in men's and women's skiing. It was noted the engine got so hot, that the enamel was blistering after the event from a waterpump failure.
If the oil handles the heat, the engine will not suffer.
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G'day Rocketeer,
Just a quick question. I have a 1300 and at the 24,000 service I decided to try the diesel oil to see what happened (I changed the filter also). Anyway, I've now done 29,000 and I've noticed that the oil in the viewing window looks a lot dirtier that the previous oils. They say that diesel oils have more detergents in them so do you thing this could be the reason?
I have noticed no change in the engine or gearbox since putting the diesel in so I presume it only makes a difference with engines that have done higher k's. I intend to go back to normal oil at the next service as at this time I can't see any benefit in sticking with the diesel................ unless you reckon otherwise.
Words of wisdom please.
Take care,
Dave R :wht13
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Des-
After reading a few more pages, I have some serious issues with this article.
I don't know anything about the author, but I can tell you what he doesn't do for a living. He doesn't test oil, he doesn't specify oil for machinery nor responsible for machine reliability, he's had some basic education in the field, and done a lot of reading. The problem when you're reading my response is going to be who do you believe- the author of an article published on a website designed for oil nuts, or someone you haven't met before going against both the article, and accepted logic.
I'm not sure how this will go, but I'm going to attach a few things to support my argument. It looks like I will reply in several parts, and there may be some time between replies. Bear with me.
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Des-
After reading a few more pages, I have some serious issues with this article.
I don't know anything about the author, but I can tell you what he doesn't do for a living. He doesn't test oil, he doesn't specify oil for machinery nor responsible for machine reliability, he's had some basic education in the field, and done a lot of reading. The problem when you're reading my response is going to be who do you believe- the author of an article published on a website designed for oil nuts, or someone you haven't met before going against both the article, and accepted logic.
I'm not sure how this will go, but I'm going to attach a few things to support my argument. It looks like I will reply in several parts, and there may be some time between replies. Bear with me.
OK mate, I'll look forward to your response, thanks for taking the time to do so as well :thumb
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Des, I have read many threads over on the oil site. Dr Haas has polarising opinions, and he is a doctor by trade not an engineer. Be careful about what many say over there, as most would use a 0w0 oil if it was available! The motorcycle section has a bit more sense, as they don't automatically accept that thinner is better or that synthetic oils are necessarily better than mineral oils. Personally I would prefer a good mineral oil with a sound additive pack rather than an average synthetic. There is an ST11 on there that has posted oil tests over a period of time. Pretty well all oils used survived Honda's change interval with some life left. I think the trouble with oils is the marketers get hold and confuse everyone. There was a GM engineer on there for a while before he annoyed too many of the members as he actually developed and tested engines for a living, so cut through all the opinion which to me is akin to alien conspiracy theories! (I can copy these files to anyone who is intereted ) I learnt enough of what I considered to be more fact based information to get some idea of what matters and what matters less.
I am sure like many here I had bikes where 2500km oil chnages with 5000km oil filter chnages was considered risky, and the oils at the time barely made even that change distance due to being air cooled with inadequate oil cooling. Today oil is probably the least concern within certain reasonable limits (ie don't usde those fuel economy oils!!)
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Des, I have read many threads over on the oil site. Dr Haas has polarising opinions, and he is a doctor by trade not an engineer. Be careful about what many say over there, as most would use a 0w0 oil if it was available! The motorcycle section has a bit more sense, as they don't automatically accept that thinner is better or that synthetic oils are necessarily better than mineral oils. Personally I would prefer a good mineral oil with a sound additive pack rather than an average synthetic. There is an ST11 on there that has posted oil tests over a period of time. Pretty well all oils used survived Honda's change interval with some life left. I think the trouble with oils is the marketers get hold and confuse everyone. There was a GM engineer on there for a while before he annoyed too many of the members as he actually developed and tested engines for a living, so cut through all the opinion which to me is akin to alien conspiracy theories! (I can copy these files to anyone who is intereted ) I learnt enough of what I considered to be more fact based information to get some idea of what matters and what matters less.
I am sure like many here I had bikes where 2500km oil chnages with 5000km oil filter chnages was considered risky, and the oils at the time barely made even that change distance due to being air cooled with inadequate oil cooling. Today oil is probably the least concern within certain reasonable limits (ie don't usde those fuel economy oils!!)
I did see that the fella who wrote the article was a doctor! That's how he can afford those Ferraris and Lambo's I guess.
Yeah I suppose if you followed that article to the letter, then 0w0 might sound like a great idea!
I agree that changing the oil/filter at the specified intervals is the most important thing, and that the oil itself isn't so important - hence my use of dirt cheap motorcycle oil in my last bike. I got interested in this when I moved to Oz as we don't have Hein Gericke here selling us oil and a filter for $30! There's no way I'm paying what they want in the bike shop for oil, hence I thought I should look in to what I could get from the car parts shop.
I'd like to learn a bit more though, so I will be interested in rocketeer's posts in this thread.
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Generaly speaking, In Oz the temps are highish, so we dont need the low winter grade oil, but something a bit heavier to handle constant high heat (35C again today)
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Des, Part 3
This is an oil analysis on my own bike a few years ago. Test 1 was on Motul 10w40. Test 2 and 3 were on PM Lubricants PM412, 15w40
There's several things I will point out.
This oil is a high ZDDP oil. zinc dithiophosphate is one of the best anti wear additives- it gives the oil film strength, or load carrying ability, and also allows for boundary lubrication, when oil is not under pressure allowing for hydrodynamic lubrication. This is what reduces startup wear, as the article suggested somewhere around 90% of all wear occurs on startup. Unless something is present to reduce friction until the oil is under full pressure.
To explain this analysis, the Motul was in the bike for 5500km. I intended for 6,000 km but I just couldn't leave it in any longer- the bike felt rough, gearchanges extremely notchy, I couldn't wait to get it out. PM412 was put in, the first test on PM (second test on this sheet) was done at 5868km, then left in the bike for a further 6571 km. In total, 12,436km on this oil at the time of the test, in a very highly strung engine which did multiple track days, and many twisty rides.
Bearing in mind, on the first sumpful on a new oil, an analysis will pick up wear materials from the last sump. Best practice is to run analysis on the second sump, as it has had the chance to clean out most wear materials. The same applies the other way- if you go from a good oil to a poor quality, the first sump will show good results, the second sump will give the real picture of what is going on internally. Evidenced by the high values in the second test, but comparatively low numbers in the third.
Wear rates are best worked out by taking the particle count number (say 40 parts per million of Iron) and dividing it by how many thousand kilometres. So in the case of iron in 12, 436km, that works out around 3 parts per million of iron per 1000km.
What this test shows is that when you work out parts per million, even with the wear metals present from the motul oil, PM has better than halved wear rates. This is the sort of testing employed by mining to watch wear rates in million dollar machinery, because although testing methods and sampling must be accurate, this shows how an engine is wearing, and whether to predict mechanical failure. (if you're interested, take a look at the sample and see if you can figure out what was happening to the engine that could have caused early mechanical failure).
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Des, Part 4
This part of an old newsletter circulated by PM Lubricants a while ago, I have footage of the actual race. Garry Brabham's indy car ran PM Racing 50, at 25w60- I have no hesitation in saying literally the toughest oil available. At the time Mobil 1 was being advertised as "the worlds finest". The team's sister car ran on Mobil 1 (the race formula, not what was available to the public at the time). A similar analysis was undertaken, and the wear rates published, as well as transaxle temperatures.
Even against the highest performing synthetic at the time, Racing 50, a full Mineral based oil, outperformed by reducing friction- which is evidenced by reduced wear rates, and reduced temperatures.
So what we have seen so far is 2 high zinc (ZDDP) oils outperforming 2 oils sold as synthetics (mobil 1 was an actual synthetic, Motul 5100 is sold as a synthetic, but as evidenced by their MSDS it is actually a mineral oil).
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Des, Part 5
http://www.formula3.com.au/series.asp (http://www.formula3.com.au/series.asp)
Above, is a link to the Formula 3 website.
Chris Gilmour is reigning Australian champion from last year. We've looked after both him and his brother Matthew through their racing- from Karts, to drifting, bike racing, and drags. Chris ran the same mineral based oil until last year, his transaxle is still mineral oil, as available to the public, and the same engine oil I ran in my bike. Race oils can't look after road going vehicles?
Last year and this year, Chris is running a full synthetic now because of the control engine, a 10w40, which is required by Mercedes to run synthetic. Actually no, Mercedes require the drivers to run mobil 1, but since he is changing every 3 or 4 races and still doubling engine life over the expected engine life, mercedes have allowed chris to run this "unknown" oil. We have several older cars still running the mineral oil.
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Generaly speaking, In Oz the temps are highish, so we dont need the low winter grade oil, but something a bit heavier to handle constant high heat (35C again today)
I am in the not so generally down to -10c during winter when you can still think about riding as it can get to at least 5c nearby or mid 20s down the coast.
I have heard of PM lubricants before as someone in the heavy machiney industry recommended them, and their toys are far more expensive if they break! Everything I have come across backs up the point that the additive pack is what you look at, not whether it is any particular type as not all 'synthetics' are actually synthetic. One of the reasons diesel oils can work well is that they can/may additives that you are not supposed to use in road going vehicles due to the potential for poisioning the catalytic converter.
I would be interested in whether there are new additives replacing ZDDP that are able to be used for petrol oils complying with oil standards for catalytiv equipped vehicles, but still deliver on wear reduction/protection.
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Des, Part 6
Viscosity.
Viscosity is measured in centistokes, as mentioned in the article. Viscosity grades are a range, rather than a finite number, also as mentioned. A 0w50 is within the same viscosity range at 100°c as a 20w50, as mentioned.
Now this is where it gets a little difficult to grasp, because this almost goes against the above logic.
The first number is an indicator of the base oil. Pour point depressants and viscosity improvers are added to to the base (mineral) oil, along with a total of around 8 additives to produce an effective multigrade oil.
So if I get this wording correctly:
"It is possible to produce a higher film strength in a higher viscosity oil".
What we have seen for years are numbers fairly close together- 15w40, 20w50, 25w60. That is because it's difficult to get such a wide ranging multigrade oil, such as 0w60 (which was impossible to achieve 0w before synthetics) which still has the film strength, and the ability to handle heat, enough to effectively protect particularly for long periods.
Racing 50 is not suitable for all applications, it is a 25w60 oil designed to be the toughest it can possibly be. No expense spared. I wouldn't put it in a prius which lives in the snow- the thing wouldn't turn over. Conversely, in Mt Isa, in an XB V8 it is ideal. Even though the cooling system may only vary say 10°c in high temperatures, the sump still sits inches over a bitumen road, which reaches temperatures high enough to literally melt your shoes.
We specify Racing 50 for almost any race vehicle over say 600cc capacity (and some 600cc bikes). Fluid friction losses of a high viscosity oil is overcome by the reduction in mechanical friction. THESE GUYS GO A FULL SEASON, IF NOT MORE WITHOUT CHANGING OIL! I want to emphasize that point, because most ultra thin synthetics get changed every race meet, some half way through a weekend meet- because they are simply worn out.
I often will specify higher viscosity mineral oils where ultra thin synthetics are called for. Once the owner of the vehicle gets over this fact and reluctantly gives in, well I've had so many people come back amazed at the difference. Particularly high revving bikes, and turbos. If the author of that article were to visit me here in Australia, I would START him on a 15w40 oil (after it's been run in on whatever his manufacturer specifies) going up in viscosity if he raced it.
Another part of the article worthy of mention- to the effect that manufacturers have gone to a lot of expense and trouble to ensure they specify the right oil for your vehicle. Manufactuer's don't understand it why when working with PM, I typically tell people up to 4 times the service period, while doubling engine and driveline expected life, while reducing fuel consumption. We have several manufacturers who recognise this- some Honda dealerships once allowed 24,00km services under warranty on sportsbikes (normally 6,00km). Isuzu Rocklea have admitted that we are the ONLY oil they will allow 60,000km services in their trucks. They won't even do that with their own oil. Mercedes are watching us, because of the high failure rate of Vito vans, yet strangely enough there are a couple of fleets who just don't seem to have the same issue as most of the other vans....Why won't manufacturers use us? Oh, about $8 per litre.....if you were as cynical as myself you might even go as far as saying they want to keep servicing vehicles regularly and have parts wear out to increase profit. Ooops did I just say that?
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Sorry guys I know there are other replies, I will get back to you all I promise!
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Keep going, this is good stuff :hatwave :hatwave
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Hi rocketeer, thanks for the detailed replies - I'll take some time to read through them properly.
One thing I can say though - I probably am as cynical as you :wink1 :rofl :rofl
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Better things to do than worry about oil. Probably change it and the filter maybe on the 20/25000 mark and besides topping it up don't care really about it at all. I mean a zillion years ago me old man used to change the oil maybe every 5000 miles/8000 kilometers with not a concern and that was when miles were the go some 40 years ago and motors were no where near as efficient as today. Surely oil has gotten better, and still people change it under the 10000 kay mark.
I know people think its important :think1 but for me all thats important??? is that the bottle has a picture of a bike on it in it so I makes the right choice, or the person behind the counter knows the right one with the right numbers and letters on it.
That reminds me???????? better have a look to see if the bike needs some
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Trend analysis through SOS is what we use on our Komatsu & CAT gear.
I must spend over an hour on each service just sampling oils.
Thanks for your informative posts rocketeer :thumb
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While I find all this information on oils very interesting and informative I wonder if it isn't somewhat lost on relatively slow revving bikes such as STs. I can understand how important it would be to run the very best oils in hi revving race engines, turbos, etc. but on STs......I really do have to wonder! When I brought my bike I recall the service manager of Pro Honda saying to me, "these motors are almost indestructible, change the oil and filter every 12,000kls and this motor should last you well over (250,000) a quarter million kls". He never mentioned that I had to use any specific oil to enable me to achieve that sort of mileage, I guess he figured that I'd use whatever oils that Honda recommended to go into my bike. I change my oil and filter every 12,000kls and I use Yamalube (Semi Synthetic) because this is the oil that my local Honda dealer recommended that I use, and is what they use themselves exclusively. Now maybe my bike engine will still be running after 250,000kls, and as much as I'd still like to be sitting on it if it is, I have my doubts, but while it continues to run as well as it does, with the oil I'm using, then I'll continue to use it.
Some of the guys on the ST Owners Forum in the USA have in excess of 250,000 miles on their bikes..........it would be interesting to learn what oils they've been using.
Fantastic information that's been posted, I've read every word and I've certainly found the information on oils interesting!! :thumbsup
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Couch- you're exactly right, it is more important on high revving sportsbikes than torquey tourers. Some people want to know they are running the best, some don't really see the need. I personally do, apart from having multiple breakdowns in the past, for the fuel economy benefits, reduced vibrations, and long service life- the other side is I personally know of several vehicles which have lost the cooling system altogether, and not seized- 2 were race vehicles, one bike which had the head removed and no visible wear or damage. For me it's something I have always been aware of, while others just don't put as much importance on the subject
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Couch- you're exactly right, it is more important on high revving sportsbikes than torquey tourers. Some people want to know they are running the best, some don't really see the need. I personally do, apart from having multiple breakdowns in the past, for the fuel economy benefits, reduced vibrations, and long service life- the other side is I personally know of several vehicles which have lost the cooling system altogether, and not seized- 2 were race vehicles, one bike which had the head removed and no visible wear or damage. For me it's something I have always been aware of, while others just don't put as much importance on the subject
It must be nearly time you told us which is the best PM oil for an ST1100 and an ST1300 in good condition, operating in 20o to 30o and where one can get it from. :popcorn
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Can do Biggles,thinking PM412 SAE15w40, leaning towards PM403 20w50 if in high heat, heavily ridden, showing signs of age or notchy gearchange for the engine
A distributor list is available at http://pmlubricants.com.au/page/key_distributors_in_australia_and_new_zealand.html (http://pmlubricants.com.au/page/key_distributors_in_australia_and_new_zealand.html). I was thinking of doing something like if you are not close to one of the distributors, then I would sort something out- hopefully with free delivery or somesuch.
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Roper-
As with synthetic, using a diesel oil doesn't guarantee a 'better' oil, rather if you are going from an average quality petrol to an average quality diesel, you will typically be on an oil which will reduce wear, diesel oils tend to have more ZDDP (the major anti wear additive) than petrols, as environmentalists claim catalytic converter poisoning from high levels of zinc. Later API specifications (SN in particular) require very low levels of ZDDP to pass, in oils of 10w or less. Interesting, that an oil of 15w40 can have high levels, whereas an oil of 10w40 cannot.....diesels don't need to limit the amount of zinc, untill you go to Low Ash oils, as designed for particulate filters in new common rail diesels.
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Hey Rocketeer.............I would never knock anyone for aiming to put the best oil in their bike that money can buy :-(((.
I have always believed that generally speaking.......you get what you pay for! If I thought for one moment that my bike would perform noticibly better by using a different oil, then I wouldn't hesitate to use it. It wouldn't matter if it cost a little more, after all, we're only changing oil every 12,000kls, or at least I am anyway. My bike runs smoothly, my gear changes are smooth, the running temp of my bike never varies, I have no noticible vibration whatsoever, I'm averaging 20.6 - 21 kls per litre, and have averaged this for the past 20,000kls, so I really have no reason to consider changing. In regard to damage to any motor caused from loosing ones cooling system >:()(heaven forbid) much would depend on how long the motor ran without the system functioning, speed of the bike (revs) during that period, the heat of the day, etc. etc. I've seen numerous motor vehicles loose cooling systems and not suffer engine damage, but it's more good luck than good management.
That's not to say that your oil is not special.,,,..I'm sure it is :)
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Roper-
As with synthetic, using a diesel oil doesn't guarantee a 'better' oil, rather if you are going from an average quality petrol to an average quality diesel, you will typically be on an oil which will reduce wear, diesel oils tend to have more ZDDP (the major anti wear additive) than petrols, as environmentalists claim catalytic converter poisoning from high levels of zinc. Later API specifications (SN in particular) require very low levels of ZDDP to pass, in oils of 10w or less. Interesting, that an oil of 15w40 can have high levels, whereas an oil of 10w40 cannot.....diesels don't need to limit the amount of zinc, untill you go to Low Ash oils, as designed for particulate filters in new common rail diesels.
Rocketeer,
That's very interesting but I'm still not sure if the answer I'm seeking is there ( No, I'm not blond. In fact I'm nothing these days. I do have a fine head of skin though).
1/ Do you think that the oil is dirtier because it's diesel and it's cleaning the motor?
2/ Is it worth sticking with the diesel even though there is no noticeable difference and if it is worth it, why?
Sorry to be a pain (everybody else.......... wait your turn) :well
Dave R
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OK rocketeer, I've read through your replies a couple of times. Am I correct in summarising:
1. The most important element of oil is 'film strength' or 'load carrying ability'.
2. This is what works to prevent wear at start-up until the oil is up to full pressure.
3. ZDDP is one of the best things for getting high film strength.
4. High ZDDP is the most important part in determining a good oil - moreso than whether it is mineral, synthetic or semi-synthetic.
5. Higher viscosity oils can be produced with higher film strengths than low viscosity oils.
6. Due to the above, higher viscosity oils are better than low, provided the ambient temperature is not too low for the higher viscosity oil.
7. 'Diesel' oils may have more ZDDP in them as zinc can damage the catalyst where fitted to petrol vehicles.
Assuming this is correct, my next question is regarding zinc levels - what is considered 'good'? I've looked at the 2 oils you've recommended from PM Lubricants but I don't see a Zinc figure. Looking at the 2 Penrite oils mentioned on here, we have:
HPR5 Synthetic 5w-40 = 0.105%
HPR Diesel Semi Synth 15 15w-50 = 0.122%
Is this the figure we need to look for? If so, how do they compare to your offerings?
Another qn - you have not mentioned a 'bike specific' oil, and it seems PM Lubricants don't do one specifically. Are these 'bike' oils actually any different, or are they just using it as an excuse to charge us more $$$ for less oil?? (Told you I was a cynic!)
Thanks for taking the time to post on here, for those of us interested we can learn a lot.
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Roper,
Sorry bout that.
Could be coming down to a couple of things. You're right, in an engine with sludge after running say GTX and not changing VERY regularly changing to a quality diesel oil it will tend to clean up the system due to the additional detergents and additives to keep contaminants in suspension. Though yours is only a new motor, i would sincerely hope you haven't got such build up already. Without knowing what you are using now, I will take a risk and say it sounds like the oil is tanning and starting to break down with heat? Is it just browning, or going fairly dark/ black?
As far as feeling a difference, old or new you will feel a difference when coming from a poor quality oil to a very high quality oil. Minor improvements you may not feel unless you change viscosities.
What oil & viscosity were you using before, and using now?
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:wht11 py
Rocketeer could you tell me or send me some info regarding becoming a distributor.
I have friends who have auto/marine parts store in Victoria Point 4165 and would like to get them to stock your oils.
We have a lot members here in the Redland City vicinity who may be interested.
Tipsy
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OK rocketeer, I've read through your replies a couple of times. Am I correct in summarising:
1. The most important element of oil is 'film strength' or 'load carrying ability'.
2. This is what works to prevent wear at start-up until the oil is up to full pressure.
3. ZDDP is one of the best things for getting high film strength.
4. High ZDDP is the most important part in determining a good oil - moreso than whether it is mineral, synthetic or semi-synthetic.
5. Higher viscosity oils can be produced with higher film strengths than low viscosity oils.
6. Due to the above, higher viscosity oils are better than low, provided the ambient temperature is not too low for the higher viscosity oil.
7. 'Diesel' oils may have more ZDDP in them as zinc can damage the catalyst where fitted to petrol vehicles.
Assuming this is correct, my next question is regarding zinc levels - what is considered 'good'? I've looked at the 2 oils you've recommended from PM Lubricants but I don't see a Zinc figure. Looking at the 2 Penrite oils mentioned on here, we have:
HPR5 Synthetic 5w-40 = 0.105%
HPR Diesel Semi Synth 15 15w-50 = 0.122%
Is this the figure we need to look for? If so, how do they compare to your offerings?
Another qn - you have not mentioned a 'bike specific' oil, and it seems PM Lubricants don't do one specifically. Are these 'bike' oils actually any different, or are they just using it as an excuse to charge us more $$$ for less oil?? (Told you I was a cynic!)
Thanks for taking the time to post on here, for those of us interested we can learn a lot.
Des,
It's great to see that I am actually explaining myself pretty well. I would agree with most if not all points you raise.
Level of ZDDP is one of the most important, yes. There are other factors, but an oil with high zinc level is very likely to be a good oil. My biggest personal issue is with oils there simply is no labelling system to indicate to users "this is best". If they were forced to represent additive levels and specific testing then it may help the situation greatly. A lot of oils simply wouldn't sell if they had to show real world test results. Another issue is there is no legislation to say you can't publish theoretical test results. Gear oils are a big abuser of this- an additive producing company will say using this particular set of additives will give a theoretical load of 'x'lbs in a timken OK load test. The oil manufacturer uses those additives, but instead of 100% of them to achieve that load, they might use 30% of them, but still claim to achieve those theoretical loads. This is similar to API- NO oil in Australia (that I am aware of) is actually tested to meet API. Rather oils theoretically pass API specifications based on the additive packs used.
OK back on topic
To give you an idea on levels, I haven't seen PM's published zinc levels, but I have been told they are upward of 1500 ppm (1.5%<) The Penrite HPR range was always designed as a high zinc oil, hence the high level in the Diesel oil. I have been told by a reliable source that the Penrite synthetics have been a real issue, and to stick with the HPR range. I believe average commercial oil zinc levels are 700-900 ppm, cheap supermarket oils less than 500ppm.
(Insider information) PM are in the process of producing a bike specific oil. In that we are in the process of producing bike specific labels, bottles, and MSDS to meet market expectations. I am trying to get the product into chains, who expect a product to 'look like' a motorcycle product so their customers can see that it is a motorcycle safe product, also catering for those who argue "but I only need 3.5 litres, why am I buying 5 litres?" (yes, I actually have been told that). Same oil, but for the cost of production of additional labels, retail specific bottles (instead of the basic, inexpensive but effective plain bottle we currently use) people buying through these retailers will pay the same price for 4 litres instead of 5 litres. By the time the retailer puts additional profit on top, yes their customers probably will pay more for less. Is there a difference between motorcycle oil and car oil in Australia? Since friction modifiers were effectively banned in the 80's, any properly built oil will service many machines including motorcycle and marine. Cheaper oils may change the recipe to cater for specific machines to overcome the shortcomings of producing to a price.
I know this adds to your cynicism, unfortunately catering for specific markets drives costs up. However, those who know PM and buy directly or from one of our distributors still gets 5 litres at the retail price.
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Tipsy, I'll message you soon
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You know I have read near every post??? And it seems for the past 40 years odd years on bikes, on the road and my time before I have been doing the wrong thing in regards to oils. Me, I've always brought the cheapest I can buy, I only change the stuff when I remember, or top it up when I look at the guage :rofl
But the Old K100 I put near on half a million kays, and on adverage way over the 150000 kays on the others without a complaint with never an oil change under the 20000 kay mark and the only time dear oil has gone it is when I have checked it at a servo in the middle of the night and had to buy some oil from their.
Think I'll stick to the old 20/50 from Target, big W cause in all honesty, can't really seeing an oil company spending heaps of cash on the same oil just so they can sell it dearer to the half dozen that will buy it
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(Insider information) PM are in the process of producing a bike specific oil. In that we are in the process of producing bike specific labels, bottles, and MSDS to meet market expectations. I am trying to get the product into chains, who expect a product to 'look like' a motorcycle product so their customers can see that it is a motorcycle safe product, also catering for those who argue "but I only need 3.5 litres, why am I buying 5 litres?" (yes, I actually have been told that). Same oil, but for the cost of production of additional labels, retail specific bottles (instead of the basic, inexpensive but effective plain bottle we currently use) people buying through these retailers will pay the same price for 4 litres instead of 5 litres. By the time the retailer puts additional profit on top, yes their customers probably will pay more for less. Is there a difference between motorcycle oil and car oil in Australia? Since friction modifiers were effectively banned in the 80's, any properly built oil will service many machines including motorcycle and marine. Cheaper oils may change the recipe to cater for specific machines to overcome the shortcomings of producing to a price.
I know this adds to your cynicism, unfortunately catering for specific markets drives costs up. However, those who know PM and buy directly or from one of our distributors still gets 5 litres at the retail price.
Now this I find interesting. I have wondered for a while what is special about m/c oil.
Yeah I'm a cynic, but hey if I were selling the stuff, I would want to sell less for more, just because there is a picture of a bike on the bottle? That's capitalism I guess. As soon as anything becomes specialised the price goes up. And if nothing else, people can buy peace of mind knowing that the oil will be OK for their bike.
Thanks again for the replies rocketeer :thumbsup
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It's more being forced to, in our case. The market says we demand xyz,, which adds cost, I can't speak for all companies.
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Good one Terry, I agree why change if it works for you? I wish I had that sort of record! Thanks for reading the lot though, appreciate the interest!
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Just one question on ZDDP. Newer formulations seem to have less and less of it if they have to meet the applicable standard, but are there any other additives that might do the same job?
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Saaz to my knowledge No. manufacturers are introducing additives such add molybdenum disulphide, which acts as a barrier lubricant reducing wear when metal posts contact, in lieu of higher film strength. This is not as effective in reducing friction and wear
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http://www.machinerylubrication.com/Read/518/motor-oils (http://www.machinerylubrication.com/Read/518/motor-oils)
Where ultra thin oils are coming from, and why manufacturers are specifying them more and more
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Hi Rocketeer, thanks for your informative info so far (I'm sure we will learn more as we go). Three things I ask if you could confirm for me please;
1 base oil does not break down, it is only the additives.
2 that as our st engines are very similar to car engines, would not the same oils be sufficent.
3 all oils sold in Australia must meet a basic standard, and so would be suitable for most engines.
Re the diesel oil, I would be worried about the extra detergents effect on the linings of the clutch plates over a long term. Had a problem with this in a Suzuki trail bike many years ago using series 3, the glue holding the fibre to the steel rings melted in the oil. Why was I using series 3? because I could get it for free!
Thanks. :bl11
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Gday STeveo
1. Agree, in most cases. Heavy overfuelling will break down base oil acting like a degreaser. But for all intents and purposes under normal operating conditions, yes.
2. Agree, to a point. A properly built oil will do all types of engines- marine, diesel, petrol, passenger vehicle, prime mover, motorcycle, small engine- it's the engine and use that will determine viscosity after that. In all seriousness, GTX is just as effective in a car engine as a motorcycle engine under the same stresses. It's a rarity that an oil is 'built for a purpose', rather poorly built oils have trade offs when used in different applications. In saying that, some high end additive packs or very specific limitations such as 'low ash' reduce a manfacturer's ability to satisfy all criteria. Or sometimes it's purely market expectations that forces oil companies to labeluse specific oils.
3. There is no issue using a diesel oil in these bikes, infact any wet clutch motorcycle- we have had multiple machines running on diesel rated oil for decades.
Hope this helps
Brad
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Thanks for the reply Brad. Have used the series 3 diesel oil in many car engines and they all did high mileages with no problems, only the trail bike caused dramas. What you wrote about the diesel oil haveing the additives that our older engines needs makes a lot of sense. The stainless mesh oil filters, are they fine enough and how do they compare to paper filtration wise? :bl11
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Unfortunately not.
I looked into them fairly heavily a few years ago, was very close to investing in them but was warned off them.
I wish I could find the email, I contacted Noria, who released an article on filtration, namely http://www.machinerylubrication.com/Read/28436/story-automotive-filters-engines (http://www.machinerylubrication.com/Read/28436/story-automotive-filters-engines). It touches on the subject breifly, so I contacted Jeremy for clarification. He stated that the stainless mesh filters simply weren't as effective as throwaway units. His advice to me was simply find a synthetic media filter.
The best filter I have found on paper so far is Amsoil's filters. I am currently running them but haven't done any testing to conclude their effectiveness. K&N filters are a synthetic media, and again on paper are a good filter. They are cheap, available, and easy to use.
Amsoil filters claimed total filtration (some 98.9%) all particles 15 micron and above, 50% 7 micron and above, which is impressive. I have seen results before/ after analysis from the states which look very promising.
K&N Claimed total filtration all particles 20 micron and above
Cellulose filters (including OEM filters) AVERAGE somewhere between 30 and 50 micron absolute filtration.
There are 2 methods of coming to the above conclusion. The first is counting and measuring the pores in the filter media under a microscope. The second is taking samples and measuring the particles in oil which has passed through the filter media. Unfortunately, I don't know which filters use which method, as method B would be the most accurate. I believe Amsoil use method B, but I am not certain.
These are very simplistic figures, but give you an idea as to the effectiveness of different filters.
BTW I believe highly in magnetic sumps. Yes they remove some material from the oil (I have read reports that the particles would have to be large enough that they would be caught by the filter anyway, so therefore are effectively useless in aiding filtration) however give a very good indication of how your engine is wearing- very little iron filings vs lots of filings. If you change your oil and suddenly see lots of filings, you can start wondering why you suddenly have far higher wear than usual....
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If you want mag plug but dont wat to buy one, take apart an old hard drive and remove the magnets near the moving arm. Now just put one of hem on the drain plug that will catch any fuzz in the sump.
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Hi folks,
Very interesting. Really enjoyed the articles and feedback. I'm running HPR 5 semi, 5-40; bike having only 7000 k so far. Will look at possibly upping the vescosity at 10K to 15 - 40. Also have a look at the PM 412 possibly?
Cheers again - Lyndon.. :popcorn
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For those interested, whle checking the specifications of the oil the car service place put in (last time I have to go there as off lease now so back to me doing it) the Penrite 5W-40 full synthetic has the MA1 rating for use in wet clutches.
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Lyndon,
PM403 has been recommended as the one for the STs, in the west any way (due to more hot days) we have 4 bottles on the way so the trials will begin soon. Mind you it could be a year before we get to do a sample test
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Hi Brock
If our oil gets here in time I'll do an oil change with it before I leave for Blackheath. :think1
Be about 8500klm on it by the time I get back, so not long till I change and get a test. :grin :grin
:blk13
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It should arrive next week hopefully, so may arrange a meet point next Saturday somewhere in a mid point between Joondalup, Toodyay and SOR. Can have a coffee and a chinwag as well.
On Sunday I fly out for three weeks, destination is a secret. :rofl :rofl :rofl
No need to do a change till 20000Ks, so you should be good for at least 3 mths riding.. :grin :grin
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Sounds like a plan to me Brock. :thumbsup :thumbsup
20,000 klms between oil changes, great. :-++ :-++
:blk13
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Won't you please tell me your secret destination. ( I won't tell anyone, promise? ) :whistle :whistle :whistle
:blk13
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(Whisper mode for Mitch only) [ I'm going to Thailand...... dont tell any one ]
:rofl :rofl :rofl
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You can rely on me Brock, MUM'S the word. :-X :-X :-X
Enjoy yourself :beer :eat
:blk13
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Hey Brock
It's next week, is it here yet? :grin :grin :grin
:blk13
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How can I put this,
No.... Not yet. :grin :grin
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Haven't you gone yet :well
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:think1 :think1 awww!! :( :( :(
:blk13
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Can't go yet, still waiting for oil. :grin
:blk13
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It is not Saturday either. 4 days for the postie. :wht11 :eat
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Oil can't be too far away, was sent over a week ago. It does take time from qld toWA, I would expect 10 days.
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Hope it arrives tomorrow, then I can arrange delivery Saturday,
Sunday I fly out for Thailand (just so every one knows) and wont be back till 22 Apr.
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Hope it arrives tomorrow, then I can arrange delivery Saturday,
Sunday I fly out for Thailand (just so every one knows) and wont be back till 22 Apr.
Come on Aussie Post! :rofl :rofl
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Serviced the ST today ready for the ride to Blackheath. :beer
Now has PM403 oil in her, interested to see if I can notice any difference. :grin
:blk13
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Serviced the ST today ready for the ride to Blackheath. :beer
Now has PM403 oil in her, interested to see if I can notice any difference. :grin
:blk13
SNAP! Also did the filter (Z436) and final drive gear oil (Honda OEM Hypoid 80 grade).
Will see you there Champ!
CHeers, Diesel
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I may have the final drive oil in (but I have full synthetic in there at the moment anyway) and the fuel additive as well but as I only have a little 400km ride to get to Blackheath the main test will be Lightning Ridge in a little while. I have lots of full synthetic oil in my stash at the moment (5W-50 and 10W-60) that I bought marked right down to use in the car and bike so may be a while until I get around to trying something different.
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PM403 and new filter in, now to wait for 20000Ks, Pick up the fuel additive next wek.
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First impressions are good so far, the bike seems quieter, cold gear changes seem smoother ( even with out the clutch). I havent had any clutch squeal on a cold take of yet, in all the bike is running nicely.
I have lost ten kilos, and find picking up girls is much easier, and the super markets just give me all my groceries....
OK, I was kidding about the 10 kilos.. :rofl :rofl :rofl
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LOL I think you were expecting too much from us mate, the girls aren't flocking this way either, and the 10 kilo's I've been meaning to lose just isn't going anywhere!!
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While I was in Port Pirie today I called into Supacheap (convenient) to see what they had in the way of filters/oils for the bike.
I'd found the RYCO Z436 and Z411 filters so I got the Z411 as it was closest to my 1100 filter in lenght and it cost $11.48.
I looked at diesel oil and most were 15W-30 or 15W-40.
Most of the car oils were also in the 15W-30, 40 or 50 range.
Only one brand had 10W-40 and 5W-60
Oil wasn't a need as I have some at home and I was just seeing what was there for later.
Next I had a look in KMart, they only had Shell and only one was suitable for the bike HX7 5W-60. Both Shell diesel oils were 15w-40. (HX5 Diesel and Rimula)
In my local Foodland supermarket I can get Castrol 10W-40 if I get desparate.......or Black and Gold lol
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Well after using PM800 through 2000 ltrs of fuel, here is my experience.
It has made no difference in my consumption figures through the ST. It has only 35,000 on the clock.
It did make a slight difference with my Navara, turbo diesel, but once again, a very young vehicle in terms of Km's. It returned figures almost identical to using premium diesel, but the additive is the cheaper option.
Here is the good news Rocketeer.
I gave my hard working young son a bottle to use through his 'not so young' Cruiser ute, a non turbo diesel. He is a carpenter so tows a builders trailer all week. It appears to have made a significant difference in his vehicle. He has seen about a 25% decrease in his fuel consumption. This may be a combination of the additive and the fact that he scored a set of brand new Genie headers for free around the same time so it is impossible to say which has had the greatest impact. He will run it without the PM for a while and I will let yorl know how that goes.
Sooo, it would appear from my experience that the additive has very little benefit on a young healthy engine but anything with some age and k's on it may find some or a significant benefit.
I know a lot of you have tried the PM800 as well.
What have been your findings?
Cheers.
Skip.
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My 1100 has 129,000km and the PM800 after 4 tank fuls made no difference to consumption or how it ran. My BF Falcon 115,000km made big difference to economy, about 3Lts/100 better after 3 tanks. Now doing the same through Wendy's ED Falcon 285,000km to help it. Will not be using it in every tankful as I think it un necessary, and six tanks later without BF still on same economy. I see this product as a good fuel system cleaner, but not as a miracle economy booster or fixer of engine problems.
:bl11
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The really important thing is, that it has not made anything worse...
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Thanks champion. Thats a great comfort. I believe you guys in the west were trialling it as well. Any feed back?
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I ran 4 tanks full, with PM800, compared the fuel usage with 4 tanks before, and 4 tanks after. The only difference I have noticed is that I didnt need to use the choke over winter. Fuel consumption differed a little, but no enough to matter when doing a statistical comparison.
.
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Thanks Brock. :thumb
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Thanks for posting your feedback guys, it's great that you are all able to compare notes.
I do find it a little unusual that so many bikes at once say little or no improvement, though I have known some bikes (and toyota petrol vehicles) to take some time to get full benefit. It doesn't seem to matter if old or new, rather seems to come down to make & model. I'm starting to wonder if the ST's are among the very few models to take some time to gain benefit, those who have run this in Falcons and found significant improvement is typical- ford and holden 6' are the most reliable to predict.
It's up to you guys whether or not you run every tank, every second or every so often. My personal advice is to run it regularly, I still have yet to see a vehicle not make significant gains, though 2,000 litres is definantly a fair go, and definantly the longest trial I have heard of with no benefit. I will ask, has there been any benefit to throttle response? (No choke in winter was a common result in older carb bikes, one in particular I can't think of at the moment).
I am no longer working with PM, though still recommend their gear in all cases as it was not a decision based on the quality of their products. Still happy to help out where I can- as I still believe they are the best choice for Australian vehicles.
Brad
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FJ1100, that's the one I was trying to think of....
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Thanks Brad. Hopefully some of the other users will post their findings as well.
Cheers.
Skip.
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Thanks for your input Brad, nice to know that you are still around.
May be in the new year I will do a longer trial to see if prolonged use has better benefit. Maybe it shows that the STs as a whole have great engines to start with (we know that already dont we ??).
I have read of people spending mega dollars to make the ST go better, with the end result being $$$$$$$$ and no improvement.
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Just :think1 I'd add this in here :thumb
On Diesel's advice (quoted below)...
...
I have returned to using... (don't laugh).... Shell Helix Diesel Oil and Ryco Z436 oil filter nowadays as no significant performance/economy boost from their expensive cousins was noticed.
Cheers, Diesel
I am now using Shell Helix HX5 Diesel Engine Oil - 15W-40
$34.49 from Supercheap Auto
http://www.supercheapauto.com.au/online-store/products/Shell-Helix-HX5-Diesel-Engine-Oil-15W-40-5-Litre.aspx?pid=215339#Cross (http://www.supercheapauto.com.au/online-store/products/Shell-Helix-HX5-Diesel-Engine-Oil-15W-40-5-Litre.aspx?pid=215339#Cross)
(http://media.supercheapauto.com.au/sca/images/thumbs/215339-thumb.jpg)
And the Ryco Oil Filter - Z436
$12.95 from Supercheap Auto
http://www.supercheapauto.com.au/online-store/products/Ryco-Oil-Filter-Z436.aspx?pid=155611#Combo (http://www.supercheapauto.com.au/online-store/products/Ryco-Oil-Filter-Z436.aspx?pid=155611#Combo)
(http://media.supercheapauto.com.au/sca/images/thumbs/155611-thumb.jpg)
Full oil and filter change for under $50 I like it :grin :grin
Thanks Diesel :hatwave
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Just looked up the specs for the oil for the 1300, for a thread that seems to have disapeared.
The specs are the same for the 1100 I think. For the general Oz temp range, 0C to 40C
20W-40/50 API spec SE, SF or better (15W-40 might be a little thin for the summer) No friction modifiers.
To me that says there is no need to outlay $100.00 for the latest silicon joby when the Repco $40.00 will do the same job.
Saying that, I still have the PM403 oil in the sump, and its coming up for 15000Ks and is working fine. Would I get it again??? Yes if it was readily available in the West.
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Full oil and filter change for under $50 I like it :grin :grin
Thanks Diesel :hatwave
:wink1 :thumb
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Full oil and filter change for under $50 I like it :grin :grin
Thanks Diesel :hatwave
:wink1 :thumb
oil's ain't oils
:o 8) Wot thuh :cop :law :p :-[ :-X :'( :wink1 :grin :eek :thumb :thumbsup :thumbs :clap |-i :|||| :phone :crazy >:() :-((( :whistle
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Just looked up the specs for the oil for the 1300, for a thread that seems to have disapeared.
The specs are the same for the 1100 I think. For the general Oz temp range, 0C to 40C
20W-40/50 API spec SE, SF or better (15W-40 might be a little thin for the summer) No friction modifiers.
To me that says there is no need to outlay $100.00 for the latest silicon joby when the Repco $40.00 will do the same job.
Saying that, I still have the PM403 oil in the sump, and its coming up for 15000Ks and is working fine. Would I get it again??? Yes if it was readily available in the West.
And that there is the problem, PM is still by far the best product I have come across, but the company just isn't ready to move outside their comfort zone.
15,000km on that oil it should still be fine, I am betting just changing the filter is all you would need. Regular filter changes will keep the oil far fresher and I would suggest in these bikes being so clean running 25,000 to 30,000 wouldn't be unreasonable. To be sure, take a sample of the oil within 5 minutes of shutdown, put it into a container (I use specimine jars from the chemist- about $1 each) post it to PM with information on your bike, current km, km on oil, and they will test it for you for free. Apart from finding out how degraded the oil is, it tells you what some of the contaminants are and whether it's all within spec.
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I have a spec bottle in the cupboard just waiting to do that. I changed the filter 5000Ks ago, dont plan on changing the oil for another 5000ks or so.
If anyone in the west is interested, i may try for another group buy of the PM403 if the deals is as good as last time.
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:blk11
Hi guy's, is there a reason most of you seem to be using diesel oil in your st 1100???
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Typically higher zinc levels than api sn or sm spark oils
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Typically higher zinc levels than api sn or sm spark oils
So what's zinc for?
Good or bad?
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Good. Generally the higher the zinc (among with phosphorus and calcium) themore ability to resist breakdown under pressure and heat, in all less metal contact which means less friction therefore less heat and wear. It's these additives that push the cost up of well built oils
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I used Shell Helix HX5 15W 40 for my last oil change.
I honestly think the motor is the smoothest it's ever been. It seems to be purring. You wouldn't think one could notice a difference, but I'm attributing it to the oil. It's the first time I've used it, and mainly chose it because it was on special for $22.99 for 5 litres. I'd also seen plenty of references to Shell Helix varieties.
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Just did my first oil change, the transmission felt really notchy on my last ride.
I used Bel-ray semi synth, I've never us it before but was out for $55.00 so I'll give it a go.
I found it a lot easier than my old blackbird, did the job without having to remove any fairing panels.
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I have just discovered that when I last had the oil changed by a "mechanic" that he used car engine oil.
This caused what sounded like a tappet rattle but was actually the oil causing a hydraulic pressure build-up because the "mechanic" had put 5.1 litres into my ST instead of 3.9 litres.
Here is what I have found on the net regarding Oil.
Do not use Car engine oils in Motorbikes ...
Another one of my wiki pages ..
Car oils in Bikes ?
A lot of people have used engine oils meant for cars in their bikes and claim that there is absolutely nothing wrong in doing so since they cannot find any damage .
The damage is certainly not perceptible to you , but such engine oils undoubtedly damage the internals . A brief intro for those who don't want to read the lengthy post-
Most car oils are rated as API SF, SG, SL and the latest being SM (not yet avail in India)
These ratings are given once in three years and each new rating is an improvement over the previous one . The ratings are in the same order as the English alphabets . The newer is better . so SM is better than SL and SL is better than SG etc.
Car engine oils have friction modifiers in them . Motorbike engine oils - specifically four stroke engines with a wet clutch multi-plate set-up do not require oils with friction modifiers . Modifiers can increase or decrease the friction , but most of the modifiers used are to reduce friction.
In my earlier post I wrote to synthetic oils I have already explained why synthetic oils sometimes cause the clutch to slip .
Recap - Synthetic Oils
Recap - synthetic oils meant for cars when used in bike will cause clutch to slip because car synthetic oils have friction reducers which are not required in wet clutch motorbikes. The oil in wet clutch motorbikes need the oil only as a coolant not a lubricant . The lubing is required for the engine and not the clutch in this case. Hence use only specially formulated motorbike syth oils and not Mobil 1 etc in bikes. Synthetic oils are available for motor bikes specifically - ex Motul 300V.
Bike spec oils
Coming back - The SL and SM ratings have friction reduction modifiers which are required in cars but for the same reason as explained above, they are not suitable for wet clutch multi plates . Apart from the clutch it is reported to cause damage to engine as well . The links for all of this is given below.
The only API ratings that are applicable to most Indian motorbike engines are oils that are of API SF or SG ratings . Check any bike manual and most of them are of this specification .
The only body which is rates oils for use in 4 stroke wet clutch bikes is JASO - Japanese Automotive Standards Organisation (http://www.jsae.or.jp/e07pub/jaso_e.html (http://www.jsae.or.jp/e07pub/jaso_e.html)) . There are two ratings from JASO - MA and MB . MA for hi friction engines and MB for low friction engines . MB is never recommended for any Indian bike . As explained previously its for low friction application - not for our kind of bikes.
Always use JASO MA grade oil . It doesn't matter what the API rating is , if its JASO MA - you are guaranteed that the clutch won't slip and as long as the oil is not API SL and above you are guaranteed that the oil is not harming the engine. All the relevant links are given below.
Resarch from the Net
From http://www.sportrider.com/tech/146_0308_oil/ (http://www.sportrider.com/tech/146_0308_oil/)
Rather than continue to rely on specifications dedicated to auto mobiles, the Japanese Automotive Standards Organization (or JASO) developed its own set of tests specifically for motorcycles. JASO now publishes these standards, and any oil company can label its products under this designation after passing the proper tests. JASO offers two levels of certification, MA (high friction applications) and MB (low friction applications). JASO requires that the entire product label be approved before it can carry its label. If a label does not have a box with a registration number above the MA or MB lettering, it could be non approved oil whose manufacturer claims its products meet JASO standards when it may not have actually passed the tests.
These standards also include a test specifically designed to measure the oil's effect on clutch lock-up, as well as heat stability and several other factors related to motorcycle engines. Our advice here is pretty simple: Read your manual, and if it calls for an API SG oil, use that. Don't substitute a higher API designation oil like SL, because it will contain less of some additives like phosphorus, and it may contain other additives that will yield higher fuel economy in a car but could cause slippage in your clutch. (More on that later.)
Why should you not use car engine oil in bikes
http://www.math.uwaterloo.ca/~rblander/oil_opinion.html (http://www.math.uwaterloo.ca/~rblander/oil_opinion.html)
None of the arguments I've provided so far have relied on the familiar old ideas about motorcycle engines being harder on oil than car engines that are so contentious in the debate. What I've presented so far is sufficient to show why you should not use modern typical car oil in typical motorcycles. But let's at least mention some of the old reasons.
Zinc from ZDDP. Zinc is an anti-wear additive typically found in motorcycle-specific oils at higher levels than in car oils. The chemical that provides it is ZDDP, zinc alkyl dithiophosphate.
Phosphorus from ZDDP. This ingredient is helpful for preventing gear wear. It is used in motorcycle engine oils to help protect the transmission. But phosphorus is bad for catalytic converters, so car oils, which are not used to lubricate transmission gears, have very little phosphorus.
Viscosity. The common car oils are 10W30 or lighter, like 5W30 and 10W30. These are too thin for motorcycles. Most motorcycles call for 10 W 40 or heavier in order to support bearings, resist against consumption due to volatility, and so on.
The debate over factors such as these often revolves around questions of the degree to which your engine actually experiences the extreme conditions that specialized formulations are intended to protect against, the degree to which simple use of ordinary oil with a much higher frequency of replacement would offer similar protection, and the relatively high cost of motorcycle-specific oils.
Anecdotal stories abound, but as single data points, they're not worth much. When the motorcycle manufacturers themselves, who have no vested interest in whose oil you buy, warn against the use of car oil for specific reasons, and when the oil industry itself acknowledges this difference in requirements by responding with a new set of standards for motorcycle-specific oils, I think it is pretty safe to put your trust in the recommendation that you should not use the modern SL "Energy Conserving" oils in your motorcycle......"
More good reasons why you don't want to use car oil in bikes
http://www.thumperfaq.com/oil.htm (http://www.thumperfaq.com/oil.htm)
Q: IS AUTOMOTIVE MOTOR OIL BAD FOR A MOTORCYCLE?
A: Not bad, but probably not the best. Why not? It is designed in reverse order to a motorcycle oil. The priority hierarchy of automotive motor oil is: (1) Maximize fuel economy. (2) Reduce emissions. (3) Offer protection for the moving parts. Today's automotive motor oils do not have the same degree of extreme pressure and anti-wear agents that they did just a decade ago."
Q: WILL AUTOMOTIVE MOTOR OIL HURT MY BIKE?
A: It could. If you're using an automotive motor oil in your racing four-stroke, you're not buying the best protection. An API SL oil is missing vital anti-wear components: the most common being zinc, phosphorus and sulphur. These agents are harmful to the catalyst that is used to diminish the level of pollutants in auto mobile exhaust.
Q: WILL AUTOMOTIVE OIL HURT MY CLUTCH?
A: Yes. The friction modifiers in motor oil improve fuel economy by making it easier for the gears, bearings, pistons and rings to slip, slide and turn inside the engine. Unfortunately, these friction-minimizing agents also make it easier for the clutch in a motorcycle to slip. If you are using automotive motor oil in your bike, apart from CRFs, you are losing hook-up and acceleration, as well as reducing the life of the clutch.
Q: WHY SHOULD I MEMORIZE THE ACRONYM "JASO"?
A: As soon as it became apparent that the American government was mandating economy over protection, the Japanese Automotive Standards Organization (JASO) developed a standard specifically for performance four stroke motorcycles. JASO designates two different four-stroke oil classifications: MA and MB. The MB oil is low friction and the MA is sans the friction enhancers.
Q: WHY ARE MOTORCYCLE SPECIFIC OILS BETTER?
A: Motorcycle specific oils are pumped up with five times the anti-wear, anti-scuff and extreme pressure additives of regular motor oil. As an added plus, motorcycle oil does not include molybdenum disulphide and other friction modifiers that wreak havoc on clutch performance.
Maxima, a popular motorcycle oil supplier, starts with an API SG Service Category base oil, the last formulation that wasn't regulated as to the amount of zinc-dialkyldithiophosphate (zinc, phosphorus and sulphur) it could contain. Maxima then boosts protection through a proprietary mix of performance additives. The end result is a motorcycle oil that doesn't break down under extreme heat and is tough enough to cushion meshing gears.
Q: WHICH FOUR-STROKE RACING OIL SHOULD I USE?
A: If the bottle of oil doesn't list that it is an API SG Service Category or JASO MA spec, it's not good enough for your motocross bike. Although a bottle of oil might say "motorcycle specific" or "safe in wet clutches," the best endorsement is the API SG or JASO MA designation. It's better to be safe than sorry.
Finally the best answer your can get
http://www.motorexuk.com/info/jaso.html (http://www.motorexuk.com/info/jaso.html)
In many 4-stroke motorbikes, the motor oil lubricates the transmission and clutch as well as the engine. If a car grade motor oil is used clutch slipping may occur at high power loads. But if you see the JASO MA specification on the oil container, you can be sure that the clutch will always bite.
Motorcycle engines place different demands on motor oils than do passenger vehicles. In the case of passenger vehicles, the focus is on fuel economy and extended oil change intervals, factors that by the nature of things are not important with motorcycles. On bikes, engines offering increasingly higher torques and R.P.Ms are being used to generate more and more power. And this is where oil additives are causing the wet clutches used on bikes to slip.
JASO MA Offers an answer
In response to the requests from leading motorcycle manufacturers, the Japanese Auto mobile Standards Organisation (JASO) has introduced JASO MA and MB, the first specifications to apply solely to motor oils for 4-stroke motorcycle with wet clutches. These standards set additional lubricant requirements beyond the spark-ignition motor oil grades defined by API or ACEA.
The JASO T 903 bench test determines coefficients of friction under various operating conditions compared with the reference oil. The results allow oils to be divided into two categories:
MA = Non Slipping Oil
MB = Slipping Oil
Coefficient of friction measurements that conform to MA requirements guarantee that clutch slipping will not occur under any load condition on even the most high performance racing bikes. These values are therefore specified by leading motorcycle manufacturers...."
from http://www2.petrobras.com.br/produto.../perguntas.htm (http://www2.petrobras.com.br/produto.../perguntas.htm)
The additive levels recommended for four-cycle motorcycles are generally characteristic of oils with API SF or SG performance. API SH, SJ and SL oils have an additive level that could be detrimental to the running of the motorcycle gear system, which is also lubricated by the engine oil.
Can I use car engine oil in my motorbike then ?
http://www.carbibles.com/engineoil_bible.html (http://www.carbibles.com/engineoil_bible.html)
Q. Can I use car engine oil in my motorbike then?
A. No you can't.
Well, actually you can in some cases. The real answer to this question lies in the type of motorbike you own. If you own a Bike with a wet clutch (ie. where the clutch sits partially submerged in the sump oil) and you dump car oil into it, all sorts of nasty things happen. Oils formulated for car engines have friction-modifiers in them. When the engine oil gets into the clutch, the friction-modifiers get to work and you'll end up with a clutch that won't bite. Bike oils generally don't have friction-modifiers, so they don't have this problem. If you're not sure, check for a JASO MA spec on the bottle. If you see that on the label, then it means the oil has been tested and confirmed to work with a wet clutch. ......"
Summary
According to the latest JASO documentation available here - Latest JASO Documentation (http://http://jalos.or.jp/onfile/pdf/4T_EV0604.pdf (http://http://jalos.or.jp/onfile/pdf/4T_EV0604.pdf))
The API ratings are primarily meant for "gasoline engines " and really more applicable to cars etc than bikes. This has been known for a long time . But the manufacturers always mention both API and JASO ratings since these take on different amount of significance in different markets . Finally I was able to find definitive proof that API ratings need not be taken into consideration at all . At the most it can be regarded as the least important factor in deciding engine oils for your motorbike .
The above PDF file explains the same in a very lucid manner . Pls download it and go through Page 8 , section 3.4
So the only ratings we have to consider to be extremely important are JASO MA and the Viscosity index.
API rating is usually for car oils . The ratings are given once in about 3 years or so . Each new rating refers to improvement over the previous version . Ex - SL is better than SG and SM better than SL and SG etc. but what you have to note is that these are ratings for engine oils to be used in passenger cars . (the API website refers to passenger car engines as automotive engines - just look at the spec chart . Ratings for motorbike engine oils is not given by API but still , that std is followed even for motorbike engines in the USA . JASO is the body which gives specific oil ratings for motor bike engine oils.)
No matter what the API rating is , Unless a given grade of oil is rated as JASO MA , or unless the manufacturer claims that it is JASO MA certified , do no use it in your Bike since JASO MA is the only standard rating in the world to be referred to when you use engine oils in your 4 stroke motorbike engines which have a wet clutch multi-plate set-up.
Do not use JASO MB - it is for low friction engines and it is not for use in our bikes . Check the manual of your motorbike - the recommended engine oil is always JASO MA and not MB.
Thus , passenger car oils are not suitable for motorbikes in most cases . There are very rare cases where you a API rated oil which might be rated as SL but still meets JASO MA ratings.
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There is a lot of misunderstandings about oils for motorcycles with wet clutches out there. If in any doubt go for an oil that has the MA or MA2 wet clutch rating on it. Not all car oils have friction modifiers to the extent that they will cause clutch slippage, but generally anything promoted as energy conserving will not be suitable. And there are petrol and diesel oils out there just as good as bike specific oils, but they either don't want to pay for the MA rating or sell motocycle oils for more lol!!
This site seems to be on the money http://motorcycleinfo.calsci.com/Consumables.html#Oil (http://motorcycleinfo.calsci.com/Consumables.html#Oil)
And it is not true that the latest API oils specs (SN) cannot be met by MA rated oils. Various penrite oils, both mineral and full synthetic, meet both. I think those sort of comments confuse meeting MA standards with oils that have too much of certain anti wear additives to meet the latest oil standards, which aim to protect catalytic converters in cars, and increasingly motorcycles.
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If in doubt use what is specified in the manual.
(https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4496/37500963014_7cbcf25179_b.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/Z8QeMQ)
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The trouble is that any new engine oil meets or exceeds those old oil standards, but after those standards fuel conserving oils were introduced, which is where the MA standard comes in for wet clutches. In all other respects, modern oils are so much better than old oils. I had to do oil changes every 2500kms and oil and filter every 5000kms on the Suzuki GS1000 before more modern oils came along - 5000kms oil and filter changes!
The oil recommendation table is exactly the same as in my 78 Suzuki owners manual, and the Honda police supplement manual. Still valid today.
Of course if you have a Ducati or BMW with a dry clutch you would be laughing right now (apart from the noise those Ducatis make!)
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Has anyone used Shell Advance SX4 15W50 Engine Oil ?
I have just got my greasy mitts on a few bottles - with synthetic additives apparently ...
Any good ?
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I haven't used it, but can't see why a Shell bike specific oil should not be good. It should be good for ambient temperatures down to -5c and handle the hottest summer weather. I have used all sorts of grades of oil, such as 15W-40, 10W-40, 10W-60 and 5W-50.
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Picked up multiple bottles for 10 shekels a pop from a garage sale.
Might be a bit old - the graphics are different to the current ones .
For 20 odd bucks with a filter change , i won't complain 8)
(http://i1119.photobucket.com/albums/k633/greeneyedmonster1/photo31.jpg) (http://s1119.photobucket.com/user/greeneyedmonster1/media/photo31.jpg.html)
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I used the Shell SX4 once with no problems other than it burnt off a bit and had to add a bit between changes.
:bl11
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:wht11 py
I am using Penrite diesel oil and will be doing change this week on friday and will let you know what it is like.
I do know that the bike runs quieter with no rattles when idling @ 700 to 800 rpms and the gear changes are smoother.
Oh by the way it will be just over 20,000 k since last change.
Tipsy
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Has anyone used Shell Advance SX4 15W50 Engine Oil ?
I have just got my greasy mitts on a few bottles - with synthetic additives apparently ...
Any good ?
I used Shell SX4 for the 65,000km that I had my Yamaha XJR1300. Worked fine for me.
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May as well add to an existing thread.
I have been using penrite 10 tenths 10W-40 in the ST1100 the last few oil changes. While I have not tested the oil, it is the best I have used so far.
Over 10,000 to 14,000kms oil and filter changes the gear changes feels the same regardless of cold, really hot or distance. Most oils tend to feel a bit clunky the older they are in or the hotter the temperature. Given my ST11 is up to 202,000kms, the oil level drops from 2/3rds on the sight glass to 1/3rd in 10,000kms, so next time I might try the 15W-50 version. The oil is around $68 full price (less 20% at the moment at repco for NRMA etc members, 10% off usually) for 5 litres. So 2 containers do nearly 3 oils changes, lasting for 30,000kms to 45,000kms or more.
I am after an oil that will do the car and bike(s) to simplify things, so this might be it.
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I worked for an international oil company for 25 years. The last 9 were in their international lubricants technical centre. I find most of what has been written here pretty close to the mark, but there's still the odd misconception which creeps in.
One thing I have found is that there isn't a piece of equipment which doesn't benefit from a reduced oil change interval. If the manufacturer states oil change at 8000 km, I change at 5000 km. I pretty much change at 5000 km anyway, unless the manufacturer recommends a shorter oil change interval. Extending your oil drain interval is just false economy.
Use the highest specification motor oil. In motorbikes thats something like an API SM or SN plus a JASO MA qualification - the JASO MA addresses the specific friction modification requirement for a wet clutch, but the additive package is skewed towards a higher anti-wear additive package. As for the viscosity grade, the high temperature grade is determined by the internal clearances of the engine, the low temperature starting requirements of the engine determines what W grade the oil should be. So if the manufacturer recommends an SAE 10W-40 then use an SAE 10W-40. If you operate in a high temperature zone the manufacturer will have printed a graph in the handbook showing the appropriate engine oil grade to use for your conditions (Honda does).
That OP who asked about Delo, thats just Chevron's (and Caltex's) cover brand for a range of "Diesel Engine Lubricating Oil". I think there's a range of Delos ranging from Delo 100 (a low performance engine oil for older naturally aspirated 4 stroke diesel engines) to Delo 400 Multigrade which is a pretty high performance diesel engine oil for the latest diesel engines. Delo won't have the friction additive that addresses clutch requirements. Delo 400 Multigrade is a good engine oil for petrol engines too, but I wouldn't use it in a motorbike engine. Yes it does have a higher level of detergency in it's additive package, and therefore will clean engine deposits out and appear darker - any diesel engine oil will do that, they're just doing their job.
Friction modified engine oils (JASO MA) lose their friction modification as they do their job, that's one reason why I tend to change my motorbike oil at shorter intervals. Towards the end of their oil drain interval you will notice a drop off in gear change feel, this is the friction modification being depleted, change the oil and you will notice improved gear change feel.
Synthetics? Horses for courses. Depends on the additive package used. I believe the first Mobil 1 was a pretty shitty oil, I think the formulators thought the use of a synthetic base oil would reduce engine deposits so backed out some of the detergency/dispersancy package. They learnt quickly, and now Mobil's synthetic range of lubricants is top class, Mobil have made their synthetics range their flagship brand. In the USA manufacturers tend to include highly hydrotreated mineral base oils (Group III basestocks) as "synthetics" (Google Mobil vs Castrol and the Better Business Bureau), in Europe they tend to accept that only Group IV and V base oils (PAO, Esters, PIB, etc) can be described as "synthetic".
Motorbike engines need a specially formulated engine oil. They work at a higher specific thermal efficiency (they produce more power for their size), there's usually less oil in the sump so what is there is exposed to higher thermal and oxidative loads, and there are specific requirements of a motorbike engine/transmission which must be specifically addressed.
Use a specific motorcycle engine oil, use as high a performance engine oil as you can get, and change it at reduced drain intervals.
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Agreed. :thumb
:bl11
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I'm with you Old Steve, bike oils for bikes. Most of my Hondas have had a 6000k oil change interval, I change at 4000k. I'm not a long distance tourer and can understand the long distance guys point, but saving a few dollars
on my pride and joy or peace of mind knowing my engine got good stuff doing the work, I think I'll spend the extra.
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Totally in agreement.
When I bought my ST I thought it would be good to have it regularly serviced by a Bike shop untill
I found out that they put the apprentice in charge of filling up the oil.
They gave him a 5 litre container of oil??? and he dutifully put all of it in the ST. :o
Wondered why gear changes were difficult until I did my own oil change and discovered that there was 5.2 litres in the drain pan. :crazy :crazy
DOING ALL MY OWN MAINTENANCE FROM NOW ON. :hatwave :hatwave :clap :clap