Author Topic: Injector cleaner  (Read 5654 times)

Offline Biggles

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Injector cleaner
« on: August 12, 2013, 01:17:19 PM »
I'm trying Valvoline Injector Cleaner because of symptoms I saw after the bike sat for two weeks.  I've mentioned elsewhere the FI light came on for the first start of the day and it's believed to be caused by gel buildup in the balance hoses between the throttle bodies.
SupaCheap Auto have a twin pack for $11.95 that is enough to treat more than four tanks of fuel, which seems a reasonably affordable treatment.
I haven't seen the symptom for a while, but Ruby deserves a little present now and then.   :thumbsup
For the modern man who lives in the city, riding a bike might be one of the only ways to escape the humdrum monotony. To take off and ride. To be both at one with nature and one with the bike. To feel masculine. Adam Piggott

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Offline jwm

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Re: Injector cleaner
« Reply #1 on: August 12, 2013, 02:21:17 PM »
There has recently been some discussion of this issue on the FJR Forum and apparently you have to be very careful of what you actually use. Some of these products can cause more problems than they solve.

This reply was from a forum member who is a qualified mechanic and owns about 20 bikes:

Quote
I went to a Bosch trade night a few years back,
they put it on because of the large number of warrenty claims due to bad injector cleaners,
fuel pumps & injectors etc run in petrol, most have a varnish covering the electrical windings,
also the fuel pump brushes run in the fuel.
Some cleaners turn the carbon brushes into lathe tools & machine the fuel pump armatures off,
& strip the insulation from the windings.
The only cleaner they would recommend was "Fuel Doctor Injector cleaner"
I have used it with good results but over dosing can damage your injection system.


The truth of the matter is that if you are running 95 or 98 octane petrol, they already have additives in them to keep the injectors clean and you shouldn't need an injector cleaner.
 

Offline Biggles

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Re: Injector cleaner
« Reply #2 on: August 12, 2013, 06:27:52 PM »
Fair warning.  I'll report if I have any adverse effects.  I've used Nulon previously without any discernible ill effects.
It certainly is potent stuff.  A drop on your fingers takes a lot of washing off, and the smell persists for quite a while.
While I don't doubt the Bosch rep, I suspect most FI systems have submerged fuel pumps to supply a strong head of pressure to the injector pump, so I would hope popular brands would be safe.
For the modern man who lives in the city, riding a bike might be one of the only ways to escape the humdrum monotony. To take off and ride. To be both at one with nature and one with the bike. To feel masculine. Adam Piggott

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Offline jimwilly

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Re: Injector cleaner
« Reply #3 on: August 13, 2013, 11:30:43 AM »
I've had the FI light come on my Blackbird this year after I had filled up at Jyndabyne, and again at Port Campbell, my motor was running rough and stalled twice. Turns out it was crap fuel from Liberty.
Put in BP Hi Octane and problem was solved. I think from other forum reports this is a common occurrance in some imported fuels. I now stick to Sheel BP or Caltex if possible.
 

Offline STeveo

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Re: Injector cleaner
« Reply #4 on: August 13, 2013, 05:41:24 PM »
I've had the FI light come on my Blackbird this year after I had filled up at Jyndabyne, and again at Port Campbell, my motor was running rough and stalled twice. Turns out it was crap fuel from Liberty.
Put in BP Hi Octane and problem was solved. I think from other forum reports this is a common occurrance in some imported fuels. I now stick to Sheel BP or Caltex if possible.


Had the same thing happen with my BF Falcon. Changed fuel and all sweet.

 :bl11
 

Online Williamson

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Re: Injector cleaner
« Reply #5 on: August 13, 2013, 08:20:41 PM »
The ST1300, has only 320km on the odometer, still on it's first tank of BP. 

A few friends and colleagues from other forums do not recommend Shell petrol, due to their alleged problems with injectors.  The CB1300 has had Shell 91 most of the time, in the last 60,000km (Shell Card supplied by work), and not suffered any apparent ill-effects.

What's the general consensus on Shell 98 for the ST1300?
Cheers,  Williamson (AKA Michael)

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Offline Biggles

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Re: Injector cleaner
« Reply #6 on: August 13, 2013, 08:28:38 PM »
I've put 3050 litres of 91 through Ruby.  95% of it has been Shell with odd Caltex and BP.
I put 4664 litres of 91 through my 04 ST13. 
It's not been injectors that made me throw in the cleaner.  I was trying to dissolve any "goo" that seemed to have settled in the rubber hoses when the bike wasn't ridden for 3 weeks.  I might add I ran the motor once in the middle of that time to allay some of the cravings.
It doesn't take them long to get huffy.
For the modern man who lives in the city, riding a bike might be one of the only ways to escape the humdrum monotony. To take off and ride. To be both at one with nature and one with the bike. To feel masculine. Adam Piggott

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Offline saaz

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Re: Injector cleaner
« Reply #7 on: August 13, 2013, 11:01:21 PM »
Shell 98 (Vortex) is a high density fuel. Seems to cause more issues with carb bikes as it can affect the fueling.  Should be no problems (or advantages) on EFI bikes.

Biggles, the hoses in question I think are more air hoses that may affect the cold idle, and gunk can accumulate in them over time. Injector cleaner may not do anything for that problem as fuel does not flow through them.  I will just check on that tomorrow.
John
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Offline Biggles

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Re: Injector cleaner
« Reply #8 on: August 14, 2013, 02:56:36 PM »
I'm sure you're right John.  I was hoping the evaporated vapours would have an effect.  I figured that if sitting cold exacerbated the gelling, then hot chemical fumes would dissolve it.  Ultimately I'll have to stop being lazy and lift the tank, remove the airbox top, remove the airbox, remove the funnels, remove the cover...
sheesh, I get tired just thinking about accessing the location before I actually start addressing the problem.
For the modern man who lives in the city, riding a bike might be one of the only ways to escape the humdrum monotony. To take off and ride. To be both at one with nature and one with the bike. To feel masculine. Adam Piggott

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Offline Sicman

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Re: Injector cleaner
« Reply #9 on: August 14, 2013, 05:47:07 PM »
If my bike is going to sit for a few weeks I make sure the last tank load is 95 ron instead of 98 so less chance of additives sitting and breaking down which can cause the clogging in the fuel lines and filter.

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Offline saaz

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Re: Injector cleaner
« Reply #10 on: August 14, 2013, 06:03:54 PM »
And just for something to read

According to Shell Australia’s Technical Advice Centre Manager, Warren
Scott, you can generally store fuel in a sealed container for around
six months before it starts to deteriorate. This assumes it’s kept
relatively cool and away from direct sunlight.

“But if the container is not properly sealed or it’s repeatedly opened,
[fuel] will start to evaporate and you lose some of the light
components in the fuel,” Mr Warren says.

Those light components include highly important butane. As these
components are lost, the fuel loses its volatility. Mr Warren says this
makes the car difficult to start.

In warm conditions, fuel is especially prone to oxidisation which
causes lacquer and gums to form. As a result, the fuel turns dark in
colour, loses its clarity and smells like paint stripper.

Gary Whitfield, Senior Fuel Chemist at BP Australia, says that in the
right conditions, fuel can last up to 12 months. But once the container
is opened, the fuel will start to degrade.

“Once the seal is broken, a vapour space is formed in the container and
the fuel will start to deteriorate more rapidly,” he says.

Okay, so what about fuel that’s left in your car’s tank for a long period of time?

Mr Whitfield claims fuel in a car’s tank can last for up to four weeks
before it becomes considerably denser. When this happens, the engine is
effectively over-fuelled (without any change in injector pulse-width)
and there’s an increased chance of carbon deposition onto spark plugs and inside the combustion chamber. This can cause driveability problems such as stutters and misses.

“Regular unleaded fuel will lose a small amount of octane over time but
in our low-sulphur and high detergent Ultimate fuel it might increase
very slightly. It might increase 1 RON in four weeks – but it’s not
something I’d bother chasing,” he says.

“Keep in mind that typical variation in BP Ultimate is 98 – 100 RON while normal unleaded ranges between 91 – 93 RON.”

Mr Warren says that in most cases, it’s only when fuel is left in the
tank for several months there’s the risk of engine damage. This is much
more likely to occur in cars running dual LPG/petrol systems.

“By this time the fuel will have gone dark and gummy and can clag the
fuel pump, filter and injectors,” Mr Warren says. It can also leave a
lacquer deposit on the inside of the fuel tank which is difficult to remove.

In addition, it’s important to be aware that fuel brews – specifically
fuel volatility - varies on a month to month basis. Standards vary from
state to state but, generally, volatility is reduced during summer
months to reduce evaporative emissions. Mr Whitfield says this
typically makes the engine slightly harder to start but there is no
change in octane.

Lachlan Riddel, proprietor of Gold Coast based tuning company
ChipTorque, frequently dyno tests cars which have not previously been
driven for several weeks.

“On the fuel mix we have in Queensland, I think fuel in a car’s tank is
starting to go off in around three weeks,” Mr Riddel says. “We can tune
a car, put it away for three of four weeks, come back to it and it will
be either closer to detonation or less likely to make the same power.

“I think local fuel is brewed to reduce evaporative emissions in warm
weather and, maybe because of that, fuel really goes crappy in eight to
ten weeks. By that stage, the fuel is extremely prone to detonation.”

Interestingly, Mr Riddel hasn’t noticed the engine becoming harder to start but the effect on octane is pronounced.

Similarly, the General Manager of Melbourne’s Advanced Vehicle
Operations, Steve Coates, believes fuel tends to go off in a car’s fuel
tank quite quickly once it’s a couple of weeks old.

“After a couple of weeks not driving a car, I find that it will be
closer to detonation than it was at the time of tuning on the chassis
dyno,” he says.

“And the brand of fuel seems to make a difference as well – I find that
Mobil and BP products are probably the best after being stored but
Shell Optimax is really good when it’s new."

Clearly, there are some important factors to keep in mind when storing
fuel in a container for several months or when parking your car for a
few weeks.

Our recommendation is not to run the engine at high load with fuel
that’s been in the tank for any more than three of four weeks and it’s
a good idea to add at least 25 percent fresh fuel to the tank every few
weeks. This will help ensure there are no fuel-related driveability
problems or detonation and will reduce the chance of lacquer building
up inside the tank.
John
(Ridden on and forever in our hearts)
1996 Honda ST1100P
2014 Triumph Trophy SE
Ozstoc, STOC #7239, Farrider #461 Ulysses #061681, IBA #59143 and some others
 

Offline Biggles

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Re: Injector cleaner
« Reply #11 on: August 14, 2013, 08:23:55 PM »
Who would have thought it could go off so quickly?
I need to refresh the litre I carry around with me because it can easily be 12 months old and would be poured into a virtually empty tank.
There is a large group of experienced motorcyclists who will use nothing but BP.  I guess for the amount we use, the considerable extra cost is worth it.
For the modern man who lives in the city, riding a bike might be one of the only ways to escape the humdrum monotony. To take off and ride. To be both at one with nature and one with the bike. To feel masculine. Adam Piggott

OzSTOC #16  STOC #6135  FarR #509  IBA #54927