OzSTOC
General Category => General Discussion => Topic started by: Draco (Heartbreak Kid) on February 19, 2017, 03:40:43 PM
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:blu13 On the 29/12/2016 @ 1524 (3:24pm) while on my way from one shift to another (from Lawnton to Buranda) Qld. I was snapped by a speed camera, alleged speed 93kph in a 60kph zone. STrange.....as i was turning right from Wallace street in Gympie Road @ Chermside.
The angle of the bike as I negotiated the turn SOMEHOW does not show that it's possible for me to achieve this speed while negotiating the right hand turn into the middle lane while straightening up. I think I am a reasonably good rider BUT not that good.
I've posted a few pictures and would appreciate any feedback, Questions or Criticisms. and any answers if this is at all possible or MAYBE the camera was faulty? Thanks
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I know the corner. The cameras are near the Remax sign. Looks like you gunned it into that corner pretty good!
I reckon you've got a good case- it must be an anomaly generated by your angular velocity in relation to the camera.
In any case, who does 93 on Gympie Road, especially having just completed a right-angled turn?
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:blu13 The thing IS right angle corners are my weak point I'm more comfortable at Lefties, BUT there's no way i could be doing 93kph at that angle, just after crossing intersection line and still levelling up??? :eek :eek :blu13left
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Definitely contest the fine.
Write a letter with the info and pics you just posted, and send it in. If it has to go to court, write/email A Current Affair. Make sure you say something to the effect that it isnt possible for you to take a right hand 90deg bend at that speed, you would have to have entered the corner at 100Ks plus
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Thanks Brock, I even spoke to a Motorcycle police officer, he said at that speed going around that corner, I would have ended up on my A**e in the gutter on the other side of the road, BUT he would not accompany me into court saying that :cop >:() :-((( :-X :-X
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:dred11
looking at the wobbly red line in pic 2 , you must have been going about 0.2 kph to get that much wobble
Rob I would fight it as what you describe dosent add up to 93 kph , .. :thumbs
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There's no way you'd be doing 93KM around that corner. if you were you'd be scrapping the pegs
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Quote from: Marcus on February 20, 2017, 12:12:19 PM (http://ozstoc.com/index.php?topic=11788.msg1215229#msg1215229)<blockquote>There's no way you'd be doing 93KM around that corner. if you were you'd be scrapping the pegs
I agree with Marcus. At the angle of the photo you are not going fast at all. Not sure the best way to present that to a court. A friendly mr plod maybe
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There would have to be a lot more lean at 93 km/h on that corner.
Cheers,
Gary
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If one assumed you had done 93 km/h down Gympie Rd, you're facing the wrong way in the lane.
Cheers,
Gary
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Maybe the camera is dodgy, or has picked up a reflection from some other object which has provided distorted readings?
Check this out, Rob ... first few lines are very interesting.
http://www.boostcruising.com/talk/87588-Secret-Speed-Camera-Tricks.html (http://www.boostcruising.com/talk/87588-Secret-Speed-Camera-Tricks.html)
Of specific info given... Metal bus stop shelters, public telephone booths, Australia Post letter-boxes, sheet metal garage doors, fences, factory walls and closely spaced iron picket fences are all listed as possible reflectors capable of distorting speed readings.
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........ and there right in front of you is a AUSTRALIA POST BOX.
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Although I just saw the date of that report ...... 2004! I think they would have either fixed the issue OR amended the policy.
We need a report that is more current than 2004.
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There was a report several years back of a radar unit reporting multiple consistently high readings, which were caused by reflection from a farmers windmill in the scanned area.
Radio/Microwave Interference can come in a variety of forms, both natural and man-made, but they have one thing in common - they produce a false or incorrect reading on the radar unit's display. Common sources of electromagnetic interference include airport radar; microwave transmissions; transmissions of CB, ham, VHF/UHF, and cellular two-way radio/ telephones, including police and business radios; faulty sparkplug wires; mercury vapor and neon lights; high-tension power-lines; and high voltage power substations. The radio energy from these sources can overload or confuse the sensitive circuits in a radar gun.
Obviously, radar beam reflection is an inherent ongoing problem that is still being experienced. Below are some of the regs regarding SA and VIC
Both sets of regulations state that the cameras should be set up on a straight section of road with no bends, and preferably no rise or fall or camber of road gradient.
SAPOL regs regarding cameras
To be used as a safety camera site a field assessment is undertaken by the Traffic
Camera Unit. Field assessments confirm the site:
is safe for the operator
is a straight section of roadway
does not have a pronounced super elevation (camber) that would distort an
incident image in the adjudication process
has a consistent speed limit
allows the operator to view vehicles approaching, passing through
and departing the radar beam
is clear of any reflective objects
is free of obstruction allowing sufficient distance in front of the radar to avoid
interference with the camera and radar operation, and the capture of a clear
camera image of the incident
is free of objects that would cause the radar beam to redirect
does not face directly into the sun.
Bends
Mobile safety cameras are only operated on a straight section of roadway.
Gradients
Mobile safety cameras may be operated on a slope, hill or gradient.
Redirection
Mobile safety cameras are radar units. Radar waves can redirect from certain
objects. Radar is highly susceptible to
redirection where there is a flat metal object or a
square vertically ridged metal surface.
In establishing mobile radar system care is taken to
ensure that there are no objects in or near the radar
beam that could cause redirection.
Redirection can be caused by:
Stobie poles
guard rails, either metal or concrete
flat metal signs
flat sided metal industrial bins
flat glassed areas (e.g. plate glass windows)
bus shelters
bridges
vehicles with large flat surfaces
(e.g. buses, semi - trailers)
metal fences with square vertically ridged
surfaces (note this does not include traditional
corrugated galvanised iron fences)
******************************************
Victoria Police Mobile Road Safety
Camera Policy & Operations Manual
© State of Victoria 2013
A site shall not
be:
a) On a bend in the road;
b) Within 200 metres of a change to a speed zone,
applicable to the same length of road, Exception
to (b) where a speed zone is defined by signs that;
Indicate a school zone or a school zone with declared school days; or
Contain additional information (e.g. times of operation),
Careful
background
evaluation of each site shall be
conducted for any sources of reflection
located in or near the radar beam position including;
a)
The possibility of vehicles entering or leaving
intersections, or travelling along service roads;
b)
Pole mounted electricity supply transformers;
c)
Mobile road safety camera
set-ups should not include sites where there are train lines which
are obscured by dense foliage – such that the
MRSCO is unable to determine whether a train
is present at the time a target vehicle is detected:
d)
Tram and train lines: Other than (c) above, the MRSCO must indicate on the Incident Log of
the Camera Operator’s Set-up notes the times that any images are taken where a tram or train
is within the area of the beam;
e)
Metal signs - house sale / auction signs and similar;
f)
Centre strip traffic signs such as No U Turn,
No Right / Left Turn, Keep Left, posted speed
limit signs and large advisory cross street signs;
g)
Armco road barriers or chevron signing;
h)
Metal bus stop shelters, public telephone
booths, Australia Post letterboxes;
i)
Sheet metal garage doors, fences, factory walls
and fencing structures which comprise of
closely spaced (10cm or less) vertical metal bars.
j)
Brick/Masonry Structures
These structures are divided into two parts;
Masonry structures that are over one metre in height and;
Very tall masonry structures such as factory walls.
Careful foreground evaluation shall also be conducted of
each site, to ensure that there are
no sources of reflection (e.g. traffic signs which
are larger than a street name, bus stop or
parking restriction sign):
Within 20 metres of the front of the camera vehicle when positioned against the kerb; or
Within 40 metres of the front of the camera vehicle/tripod when positioned off the road;
Within 50 metres of the front of the camera vehicle/tripod where very tall/large vehicles (or
similar sized reflective objects) are positioned in the foreground (this applies whether
positioned on or off road).
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"Mobile safety cameras are only operated on a straight section of roadway.
That phrase alone should prevent the photo being used since the subject has turned, as is evident from the angle of the bike. If the adjudicators think otherwise, why wasn't there an infringement for running a red light, since the radar is co-sited with a red light camera?
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Its not a "Mobile" camera, its a fixed redlight/speed camera at an intersection. Got em over here as well.
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There is the option of measuring the radius of the path you followed around the corner
finding a corner out in the country with the same radius
have your photo taken going around that corner at 93 km/hr
comparing the lean of the bike in the two photographs
Your speed around the city corner would be proportional to the angle of lean (or probably to the sine or cosine, but don't confuse things) so half the lean angle would be half the speed.
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There is the option of measuring the radius of the path you followed around the corner
finding a corner out in the country with the same radius
have your photo taken going around that corner at 93 km/hr
comparing the lean of the bike in the two photographs
Your speed around the city corner would be proportional to the angle of lean (or probably to the sine or cosine, but don't confuse things) so half the lean angle would be half the speed.
That'll set their heads spinning in court. :crackup
The angle is basically 90o, although it is stepped out 3 lane widths.
I still reckon he'd be cranking it to do 90. 60 would be achievable without being too reckless, but probably the maximum.
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I demand an update....
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:popcorn
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Never mind a photo, take a video.
the case wil;l be instantly be dismissed when they watch bike nm rider part company trying to take the corner at 90+
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:blu13 Thanks for all the support and info guys ++ But I've just decided to pay the fine and wear the "12" points, and have since been issued a GRB (Good Rider Behaviour) or GDB if i was in a car, I just found it too time consuming and waste of my money to fight it :well :|||| :blu13left
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Dont do that, just write or call and tell them its impossible. Or wait and go to court, and explain that its not possible.
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Yeah. Don't do it Draco. Have your day in court my friend. 12 points is a high price to pay me thinks.
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Yeah. Don't do it Draco. Have your day in court my friend. 12 points is a high price to pay me thinks.
Surely it's not 12 points! :eek
Do you mean 4 points added to the 8 you already have?
Either way, it reads like you've done the deed and now have to ride like a Nanna for a year. :'(
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Meanwhile, without any further investigation, this traffic camera will continue to provide false information regarding other drivers/riders which will lead to more charges.
(Sings-) "Money money money, it's a rich mans world"
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Yeah. Don't do it Draco. Have your day in court my friend. 12 points is a high price to pay me thinks.
Surely it's not 12 points! :eek
Do you mean 4 points added to the 8 you already have?
Either way, it reads like you've done the deed and now have to ride like a Nanna for a year. :'(
:blu13 because i accumulated "2" speeding fines within 1 year the highest points are doubled so "6" become "12" thus "Nanna" rider for 1 year OR loose it for 5 months, but lose 2 points within that year it becomes 10 months NO LICENCE :eek :eek SAFETY MY A$$ revenue raising is the correct term for this Wot thuh Wot thuh Wot thuh
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Draco you really need to fight this one.
1. It is grossly wrong and you cannot afford the points, or the fine.
2. You may save many other riders from an incorrect reading.
Its easy for us outsiders to say but any reasonable person can see that the rading is impossible
Cheers
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Draco
Maurice Blackburn Lawyers motto is "we fight for fair". While they specialise in accident compensation suits, they have a social justice area as well and may be willing to take your case on for "no win, no fee".
I've had no dealings with them apart from picking up a card at a motor show so know nothing about how they'd handle the case or even if they'd take it on.
There could well be other legal firms doing the same stuff but it may be worth a call.
Good luck
Dave B
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Draco
Maurice Blackburn Lawyers motto is "we fight for fair". While they specialise in accident compensation suits, they have a social justice area as well and may be willing to take your case on for "no win, no fee".
I've had no dealings with them apart from picking up a card at a motor show so know nothing about how they'd handle the case or even if they'd take it on.
There could well be other legal firms doing the same stuff but it may be worth a call.
Good luck
Dave B
I think you'd need a pro-bono solicitor. Maurice Blackburn and the rest of the Ambulance Chasers will only take on cases on a "No Win No Fee" basis where there's money to be won. There is no prize money for this one. Only a possible escape from paying money to the gummint.
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They have been doing the Helmet and helmet cam cases for free as i understand it, mind you it does give them great free advertising.
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Draco you really need to fight this one.
1. It is grossly wrong and you cannot afford the points, or the fine.
2. You may save many other riders from an incorrect reading.
Its easy for us outsiders to say but any reasonable person can see that the reading is impossible.
Cheers
Totally agree. Understand, that the easy way out is go with the flow ,pay the fine and and take the points. Not if you are right though!
I would like to propose that as we all will benefit from the court action, we make a contribution to support this cause. I am very happy to chip in $100 to a win lose draw fund, to fight this rubbish. If we don`t, we are collectively letting ourselves down. Nigel :wht11
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Can you fight a fine if you've paid it? The payment of the fine is regarded as an admission of guilt, which is why you don't pay it before going to Court, and why the points aren't applied until the fine is paid.
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Just the reason it has to go to court, but if a loss occurs the costs are covered > Nigel
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I'd pop a couple bucks into the kitty
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I'd have thought that if they won, Maurice Blackburn Lawyers would ask the magistrate to recover their charges from the Police as costs.
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I'd have thought that if they won, Maurice Blackburn Lawyers would ask the magistrate to recover their charges from the Police as costs.
You could well be right. I try to stay away from lawyers, judges and Courts, so don't know much about any of them. :crazy