OzSTOC
OzSTOC News & Rider Assistance => OzSTOC News & Events... => Topic started by: Diesel on August 17, 2012, 10:01:56 PM
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Got this off the FarRiders Website....
Another contentious issue and another bureaucratic bum seemingly needs a good smacking!.... :spank
http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7270/7794069936_c5f37a0ede_h.jpg (http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7270/7794069936_c5f37a0ede_h.jpg)
Do you believe what you just heard him say? :cuss
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If I'm looking closely enough, Senior Sergeant Bill Gore has his hand on it!
It's simple, tell motorists to LOOK before merging/crossing/overtaking/changing lanes/etc.....!
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While I wear a fluro vest, I think it should be a personal choice, as it the level of safety gear each of us wears. As for compulsory leathers???? They arent suitable really for the Oz climate.
Those Zoomy kids on the $1500 scooters would look cool in $4000 worth of leather..
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Hopefully this idiocy will only apply in Victoria, and they will leave the rest of us alone without Big Brother trying so desperately to live our lives for us.
Obviously no-one told these clowns that the ideal government tries to legislate a little as possible, not as much as possible
:well :well :well :well :nahnah
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I'm sure the uninformed Gummint irriots think leather is the only safety clothing available.
As for Sen Sgt Gore, by implication, if you wear a fluoro vest, you won't fall off and hurt yourself.
Hopefully only youse Mexicans will get stuck with this BS.
Next thing they'll want the bikes painted in fluorescent paint.
Yes, we are over-represented in the statistics, and we know it's because we are not protected by a tin can when collisions happen.
Fluoro gear might help a little bit, but I think it's a bit like the lady says- every courier, lollipop lady and ditch digger wears fluoro and people will simply stop reacting to it, the way they can't see any m/c that's not white!
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Already law in France and soon you will need to carry your own breathalyser kit? :(
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they cannot see brightly coloured cars or trucks so how do we expect them to see duel lights.
when i started rideing in the 1970`s a similar issue was turn your lights on full time " i even used a yellow reflective cover for my 250s headlight " but was still run of the road as the "i didnt see you syndrome". anyway the lights stayed on and now we are at the same crossroads
so brock and others who use those types of jackets! how often do they move over on you, cut you of at roundabouts and generally SORRY MATE I DIDNT SEE YOU
im not for it as compolsary as i want it to be my choice. most jackets now have refective piping or and panels and still the same issues.
the thing is EDUCATION of drivers and riders . why riders you say? well you ultimatly you are responsable for YOURE LIFE and should share the resonsability as i drive a bike and car and others drive a hole range of vehicals.
ongoing training is a great help and would benifit a large range of drivers, riders and pedestrians (as they are also affected will be the next to be govend by over elumination)
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I know that we are over represented in the statistics but I've also read that the stats involving motorcycle related injury and fatal collisions include unregistered and unisured bikes and unlicenced riders and those that don't wear safety gear (helmets etc) and also collisions on private property.
It'd be a good and a fair comparison to see the stats that only involve registered bikes and licenced riders properly protected.
I'm an advocate of road safety, don't disagree with speed cameras but do think the tolerance should be reasonable.
For myself and any pillion ATGATT applies for every ride but I do have a proposal for those that object to wearing a helmet.
I don't think it should be compulsory to wear a legal helmet but if you're not and are injured or your helmet doesn't comply with current legislation then you should have to pay any hospital/medical costs yourself. About now is when those that object to wearing helmets go a bit quiet.
Any comments?
Brad
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Don't get excited???
"ÏT SAYS COULD BE"
Yeah and cars could be banned??? Virginity could be made compulsary??????? and Motorcytcle Licenses must be shown before you buy a Latte????
"Give me a brake" heard it all before??
Just like the many fools in positions of importance that say they are going to reduce the road tole :rofl
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so brock and others who use those types of jackets! how often do they move over on you, cut you of at roundabouts and generally SORRY MATE I DIDNT SEE YOU
That still happens, but I am always watching out for it ( just cos I'm paranoid doesn't mean the Bastards aren't out to get you) but I am seen much more these days. The Pearl helmet and the White ST1100 sure help there.. :grin :grin :grin
Maybe all bike riders should ride excop bikes :wht11
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Maybe all bike riders should ride excop bikes :wht11
Here Here. :thumbsup
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Already law in France and soon you will need to carry your own breathalyser kit? :(
But that also applies to car drivers and they must wear it if they get out of their car while on the side of the road.
Also no need to wear a hi viz vest as such but arm bands etc are ok providing they meet the minimum requirement.
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...and anyway, they are Frogs!
Know the only thing wrong with France?? It's full of Frenchmen!
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:law
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Roughly translated as "Can you see me NOW?"
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As for compulsory leathers???? They arent suitable really for the Oz climate.
As Brock said leathers aren’t suitable for everyday use in Australia :well
I think compulsory fluoro vests aren’t a good idea, there are so many people wearing them now that they are starting to just become overlooked as part of the normal landscape and just won’t add that much of an advantage.
What I would prefer them to implement is an Australian Standard for all MC gear (like they do with helmets) then if you choose to wear gear you know it will do the job it’s meant too :thumb
If they did this then I think they could make it compulsory to wear a minimum of an approved helmet and jacket or vest with at least jeans and fully enclosed footwear without people having an issue with the legislation.
But as it stands… I think Brock needs to give them a :spank :spank :spank :well :spank :spank
Cheers
Shiney
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+1 with Brock on this... I don't agree with legislating for it, but I wear one nonetheless. One time my 14yo daughter was on the pillion and objected to be wearing it - 'cos it was too "embarrassing" (?). I relented and took it off. Man - did I feel vulnerable. As an experiment, I rode with it on and off over the next few days. Although very subjective, I can say that there is a definite difference. From then on, if she needs a ride, she gets embarrassed - it's impossible to get her to wear one though!
What I'd like them to legislate for, however, is for car drivers to use their neck, turn their head, and have a good look. The vest helps self preservation (but not a guarantee) against those that only use their mirrors. What I also find alarming is the appearance of "lane changing collision avoidance" devices built into the mirrors of new cars. IMHO, this will only result in drivers actually "looking" less.
As far as leathers go, one would hope they're targeting protective standards, not cow-hide.... too hot for me, and not as comfortable in the seat (me thinks, never tried).
In the end, this is a scary place for legislators to be heading... what's next: gloves, boots, eye-wear, ABS, power/speed limitation,...
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There is too much regulation happening, but you cant regulate idiots,or legislate for them
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There is too much regulation happening, but you cant regulate idiots,or legislate for them
Totally agree I nearly got cleaned up in the Hidden Valley Drags carpark last night lights on, fully lit carpark at least the guy gave me a wave of recognition with a Bundy in his hand go figure.
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The day I have to wear a flouro vest I'll sell the bike & hand in my bike license & I think thats what they are hoping for with this legislation
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:well
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Next they will want us to put the Postie flags on our bike :well :well :|||| :blk13
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I tried out wearing a flouro vest over my dri-rider the other day and there was so much reflection from the flouro in the GPS that I couldn't read it, all I could see was flouro yellow. What a bloody disaster, we are in danger of being legislated out of existence by know-nothing politicians :well :well :cuss :cuss
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This is an interesting take on the issue I saw a while ago. Bear in mind that we 'see' bikes because we're tuned to spot them.
Crash Course - The SMIDSY (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eqQBubilSXU#ws)
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This is an interesting take on the issue I saw a while ago. Bear in mind that we 'see' bikes because we're tuned to spot them.
Good find mate :thumb thanks for sharing
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Agreed! ... Thanks for the upload :thumbsup
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Worth watching Brett, cheers. :beer
Dave :wht13
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Good ideas there, for sure.
I know some guys here have LED DRLs (Daylight Running Lights).
I wonder if flashing LEDs like the bicyclists use are effective? I know I always see them.
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I wonder if flashing LEDs like the bicyclists use are effective? I know I always see them.
It seems that might draw unwanted attention Biggles, I suggested using flashing LEDs that matched the bike and Roper seemed to thing that the polds would get jealous. ( something about the strobing rednblues upset em) :grin :grin :grin
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I wonder if flashing LEDs like the bicyclists use are effective? I know I always see them.
It seems that might draw unwanted attention Biggles, I suggested using flashing LEDs that matched the bike and Roper seemed to thing that the polds would get jealous. ( something about the strobing rednblues upset em) :grin :grin :grin
I'm thinking of clear white ones. Wouldn't want anyone accusing me of being Plod impersonator.
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mate IMHO, to get a white LED to be seen in daylight, on a bike, over the headlight glow, from a distance that would be benificialy to stop SMIDSY, would mean you would have to light up the whole nose cone which would look like it came out of the mardi gras :rofl
But hey, Go for it as id be interested to see it but IMO youd better off pinging your headlight
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:thumbs Good video! That knowledge will go into my survival toolkit.
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I'm certainly not a fan of compulsory anything (including helmets). As motorcyclists we're already on the fringe as far as conformity is concerned. Many of us realise that it helps to hedge the bet in our favour and do everything we can. I doubt a high vis vest can even be seen front-on on any ST and wouldn't be terribly visible on any bike until riding past. However they can't hurt.
I really like the DRL concept. I have read that having them positioned as far away from the headlight as possible increases the 'visible frontal area' of the bike so maybe down on the crash wings would be a good position.
I very nearly missed a bike rider on the weekend in Toowoomba. Stopped at a side street waiting to pull out and only 'saw' him on the second left glance. I'm getting over the flu and the bike (a chopped Harley) had minimal frontal area and no working headlight. No excuse however, and it rattled me. If I'd been the typical texting distracted driver I would have pulled out on the poor bugger.
Stay safe.
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So to go back to the topic (watching that video with the rider on the full faired bike WITH the fluro jacket on), sitting behind the fairing made it very hard to see the fluro jacket and the outline of the fluro colour blended in with the bike. To wear one on an ST would be the same. I will try his SIAM next time I come to a T junction and see if it makes any difference. As the lady said "we need to better educate car drivers", but doing things yourself to avoid not being seen has got to be worthwhile too.
:bl11
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mate IMHO, to get a white LED to be seen in daylight, on a bike, over the headlight glow, from a distance that would be benificialy to stop SMIDSY, would mean you would have to light up the whole nose cone which would look like it came out of the mardi gras :rofl
But hey, Go for it as id be interested to see it but IMO youd better off pinging your headlight
H3ndo, you might like to have a look at some of these or better still check out my bike sometime >:()
http://clearwaterlights.com/gallery.html (http://clearwaterlights.com/gallery.html)
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This the French position from 01/01/2013.
The original ruling has been softened a liitle and is in effect brining the requirement in line with car drivers http://www.tripadvisor.co.uk/Travel-g187070-c98919/France:High.Visibility.Jackets.html (http://www.tripadvisor.co.uk/Travel-g187070-c98919/France:High.Visibility.Jackets.html) who have had to wear them since 2008.
http://news.motorbiker.org/blogs.nsf/dx/france-about-the-hi-viz-law-for-motorcycles.htm (http://news.motorbiker.org/blogs.nsf/dx/france-about-the-hi-viz-law-for-motorcycles.htm)
Reflective Material
Starting 2013 (so next year), it will be mandatory to have Hi-Viz, reflective, material on your vest. The total size of the reflective material has to be 150 cm2. It does not have to be one piece; it can be several pieces, as long as the sum of the pieces is 150 cm2. So if you wear one or two Hi-Viz armbands, you're fine.
Who Has To Wear This?
Motorcycles and scooters with more than 125 cc, or more than 15 kW/h power. Also trikes will require to wear them. This means that mopeds (the ones that have a lot of accidents) do NOT have to wear them. Also 125cc vehicles are exempt. Strange but true.
So I wonder how far they will go if/when the rules are implemented over here?
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I have a set of driving lights, Biggles was talking about flashing white. Anything that helps one get noticed is a good thing, but compulsory for bikes because of the failings of car/truck drivers
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I only use mine at night
confusing on comming trafic , that there is a truck comming
:blu13
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^^^^ :rofl :rofl :rofl :rofl
STruck ???
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^^^^ :rofl :rofl :rofl :rofl
STruck ???
Yeah like it :thumbsup :blu13
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Had Roo whistles on my bike for a while until I figured out I had purchased the African Model that keeps Elephants, Rhino's and Giraffes from crossing in front of you.
Figured out they were the African model cause I never seen any Elephants, Rhino's and Giraffes but still saw heaps of Roo's :rofl
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Had Roo whistles on my bike for a while until I figured out I had purchased the African Model that keeps Elephants, Rhino's and Giraffes from crossing in front of you.
Figured out they were the African model cause I never seen any Elephants, Rhino's and Giraffes but still saw heaps of Roo's :rofl
:rofl :rofl :rofl :rofl :rofl :crackup :crackup :-++
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Anyone who's seen my ST13 coming towards them INSTANTLY NOTICES the 6000K HIDs in the main headlight array.
At this temperature - they are 'whiter than the sun' and therefore stand out from any reflections etc.
This has stopped close calls since I installed them (from in front of me anyway), and also lights up the road well at night.
This does not mean they blind oncoming drivers, as they are a set, directional beam, same as OEM halogens - just that they are peculiarly 'white' and get noticed.
Cheers, Diesel
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Children....... :spank :spank
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First met tj189 in the middle of nowhere at a servo and all I know is this.
The man doesn't just own a bike but rides it and does the kays. Probably why I talk to him.
Checked out his bike more than once and everything on it works, is the best you can get, and does the job.
When I first met him he had on a Flouro Vest over the jacket and the bloody best you can get (Olympia) I know cause I got me one after the truck hit me.
As the man says "Each to their own H3ndo, we do what we think may be safer for us"
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Is it just me or are some members getting personal and criticising others?
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Is it just me or are some members getting personal and criticising others?
Dont worry, we are watching, and will smite should the need arise. :law
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Regarding visibility; I've never gotten as much respect on a bike as when riding my uncle's previous ST, a '96 police. Those sucker's really get noticed.
I don't think it matters that they've gone to Beemers and FJRs, all the cagers see is BIG WHITE BIKE. A few reflective strips go down well on a BIG WHITE BIKE too :wink1.
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Several comments not pertaining to the thread have been removed.
Keep to the topic Gents.
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Had Roo whistles on my bike for a while until I figured out I had purchased the African Model that keeps Elephants, Rhino's and Giraffes from crossing in front of you.
Figured out they were the African model cause I never seen any Elephants, Rhino's and Giraffes but still saw heaps of Roo's :rofl
:crackup :crackup
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Children....... :spank :spank
:eek :well
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I add this for those who choose to be a bit better informed and would prefer that if you wish to ridicule then do it somewhere else.
some studies from NZ in 2004 regarding Motorcycle rider conspicuity and crash related injury: case-control study
Abstract
Objective To investigate whether the risk of motorcycle crash related injuries is associated with the conspicuity of the driver or vehicle.
Design Population based case-control study.
Setting Auckland region of New Zealand from February 1993 to February 1996.
Participants 463 motorcycle drivers (cases) involved in crashes leading to hospital treatment or death; 1233 motorcycle drivers (controls) recruited from randomly selected roadside survey sites.
Main outcome measures Estimates of relative risk of motorcycle crash related injury and population attributable risk associated with conspicuity measures, including the use of reflective or fluorescent clothing, headlight operation, and colour of helmet, clothing, and motorcycle.
Results Crash related injuries occurred mainly in urban zones with 50 km/h speed limit (66%), during the day (63%), and in fine weather (72%). After adjustment for potential confounders, drivers wearing any reflective or fluorescent clothing had a 37% lower risk (multivariate odds ratio 0.63, 95% confidence interval 0.42 to 0.94) than other drivers. Compared with wearing a black helmet, use of a white helmet was associated with a 24% lower risk (multivariate odds ratio 0.76, 0.57 to 0.99). Self reported light coloured helmet versus dark coloured helmet was associated with a 19% lower risk. Three quarters of motorcycle riders had their headlight turned on during the day, and this was associated with a 27% lower risk (multivariate odds ratio 0.73, 0.53 to 1.00). No association occurred between risk and the frontal colour of drivers' clothing or motorcycle. If these odds ratios are unconfounded, the population attributable risks are 33% for wearing no reflective or fluorescent clothing, 18% for a non-white helmet, 11% for a dark coloured helmet, and 7% for no daytime headlight operation.
Conclusions Low conspicuity may increase the risk of motorcycle crash related injury. Increasing the use of reflective or fluorescent clothing, white or light coloured helmets, and daytime headlights are simple, cheap interventions that could considerably reduce motorcycle crash related injury and death.
www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC387473/ (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC387473/)
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ok, so the sample size of one (2004) concluded a 37% lower risk. What about a larger sample, such as adding in 2005, 2006, 2007 etc....
Our national road toll (all vehicles) fluctuates each year, therefore the results of such study as seen above would also have variations.
This still doesn't mute the argument that better driver awareness, and rider education would have a similar effect on crash statistics.
I'm 33 and have gained my license through QRide. I was fortunate to have a passionate instructor that taught how to ride and survive, not just get my license. My father is 54, and learnt the old-school way on country roads, and has never "updated" those skills as many otheres do. Today when I took my mother for a ride as pillion, she pointed out that my riding style was completely different to my fathers, and she felt as "ease" on the back with me, having a smoother ride. This is not to say dad is a bad rider, on the contrary he could handle a bike better than me (I know, I've followed him before), It means that in a certain scenario he may react differently to me, possibly changing the result. I'll back my training giving me a different awareness.
My point is, has there been a study on the riders experieince/training and the crashes these riders were involved in? I'd like to see that one.
Anyway, enought rambling, dinner is on the table.... :grin
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Conclusions Low conspicuity may increase the risk of motorcycle crash related injury. Increasing the use of reflective or fluorescent clothing, white or light coloured helmets, and daytime headlights are simple, cheap interventions that could considerably reduce motorcycle crash related injury and death
As usual, money spent and no real outcome resulted.
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Conclusions Low conspicuity may increase the risk of motorcycle crash related injury. Increasing the use of reflective or fluorescent clothing, white or light coloured helmets, and daytime headlights are simple, cheap interventions that could considerably reduce motorcycle crash related injury and death
As usual, money spent and no real outcome resulted.
Acutally - I disagree. Like climate change, smoking, safe-sex, etc. there is nothing guaranteed about test samples. What we need to look for is the language..... the use of the term "may increase the risk" is far different from "is not associated with risk", or "may decrease risk".... quite the opposite. Statistically, it has shown there is some correlation, although imprecise.
The title of the post was all about enforcement. I think we all believe that there are other behaviours of other drivers that could change and equally result in reduced risk for the motorcyclist. However, for me it's easy: flouro vests cost next to nothing, don't hurt anyone else, take no effort to wear, and might increase my chances of getting to the destination safely... so - it's a no-brainer for me... I wear it.
Leathers are a different story....
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Yes research is old and needs updating but it at least is research. The other major research project was the Hurt report. the findings may be found here
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_findings_in_the_Hurt_Report (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_findings_in_the_Hurt_Report)
Point 14 of this list is interesting.
So there you are two reports from research projects. Neither is up to date. Your decision your choice.
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If they can't see you with a headlight on then a Flouro vest may not help. Around town I wear an Olympia jacket that's Flouro and it makes no difference. People still pull out to pass heading towards me. People still pull into my lane, people still try and run up the back of me. Makes no difference at all.
Funny thing is they do exactly the same if I have a normal jacket on????
Kinda remember when Helmets became compulsory because they would save lives???? Hmmm their first year of introduction Motorcycle road deaths went up.
Seems people thought helmets made em safer.
Wait a minute, maybe fools will think Flouro jackets will make em safer :rofl :rofl :rofl
Yeap me bloody jacket makes em notice me better :crackup :crackup :crackup :crackup :crackup :crackup
(http://i21.photobucket.com/albums/b268/terryjohns/IMG_0515.jpg)
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Each to his own.
I'm sure there's an equal amount of info that says it makes no difference either way.
Complacency will always win whether on it's on construction sites, with road workers or drivers not seeing motorcyclists irrespective of what's worn.
However........
I think that wearing a fluro vest at least at night has merit especially if I came off.
I'd rather being a glowing ball lying on the black tarmac in a truckies head lights rather than just a black blob.
My 2 cents worth.
:beer
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I think it comes down to driver, rider education. You get alot of younger rider that have just got there learners no experience in traffic, like all young people they don't like to be told.I drive alot in my job and I am seeing alot of scooters on the road, these had pissy little lights and are alot smaller than a real bike they weave in and out of the traffic . Most don't even wear riding gear .shorts and tea shirts . Fluro vest wouldn't make any difference . Drivers aren't any better most are on the phone( more ladies than guys) . Everyone is in a rush . Cheers :|||| :|||| :blk13
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So I'm tootling along in the cage behind a guy on a dirt bike who was wearing a ruck sack type bag on his back that was a CAMO colour!!!!
How ironic that with this discussion of how to be seen better, this chap decides to wear an item that makes him blend in with the surroundings - i.e. BECOME MORE INVISIBLE!!!
Who makes this 'anti-safety' gear? And why would you buy/wear it?
Really! Camouflage Back Packs? (Remember that the back pack constituted 90% of what you can see of the rider from behind on a dirty, narrow dirt bike with small blinkers and lights etc - not like being behind a Nimitz Class ST11 or 1300!)
Cheers, Diesel
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Not so much who makes it, but who in their right mind would buy such a thing to use on the bike...
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So many guys also wear the camo pants when riding
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All this talk of hi-viz stuff reminds me of a tongue in cheek remark I made to one of the bosses in a company I used to work for.
They advised that all visitors and office workers in the company would be wearing those orange safety vests if they ventured into the factory area. "Now we can see you when we run over you" I responded as driving a fork lifts of varying capacities was part my work.
Sadly; I can imagine the same occuring on the road.
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flouro crazy :runyay
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Here is another good reason for them....
View My Video (http://tinypic.com/r/rb9nk5/6)
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I usually wear this
(http://www.visordown.com/news/images/arai-chaser-fluro-side.jpg)
and this
(http://images.motorcycle-superstore.com/ProductImages/OG/2009-Joe-Rocket-Yamaha-Delta-R-Jacket.jpg?01AD=3n1gScQDhC3AKIaYlYMqP0mSqq-Mgqy2MVGsCvCefQp35pCUlRFtkkw&01RI=678E356A98F9CBD&01NA=)
I haven't had much of a problem with people pulling out in front of me. Actually I'd have a hard time remembering the last "almost accident" I've had.
My other bike is a 1983 GPZ750 which is ridiculously, obnoxiously loud. Its yellow and red. Never had a problem on that one either. STutter is black, but if I did up the bike to look like so...
(http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3508/3179502649_619e5b203f.jpg)
While you couldn't miss it, I'm sure the police would have you up on impersonating a police vehicle - similar to the way you cant have blue and white checks on your paintwork.
Ultimately, I simply think that from a young age we're told to look for CARS, not vehicles. If anyone hit me wearing the above on a giant black bike the size of a bloody dugong and say "I didn't see you" they had better hit me again, because when I get up I'm going to punch them in the nose with whatever appendage is still working.
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Good call STutter.
I wished that if they uttered the words "SMIDSY" that this would be an admission that they are not fit to drive on the roads! Coz if I stay out of the blind spots and make all my manouvring intentions clear and they still didn't see me - then they won't see half the other cars about either! :cuss
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In my humble opinion the SMIDSY excuse is firmly in the arena of "Driving Without Due Care and Attention" which is illegal, and as such these blind maniacs should be formally charged.
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I thought that SMIDSY was an addmission of guilt, as clearly the person who was hit was definately there!
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Well we recently decided we would do the High Vis thing, our rational is simple......now riding a BLACK bike in BLACK riding gear that is still very serviceable and not near ready for replacement, for the sake of $30 it won't decrease our chances of being seen.
:beer
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That's my rationale too. However, pop into Woollies and you'll spend less than $5ea.
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Having been riding on the road for over 45 years I would like to think I am very conscious of seeing other bikes on the road. Out on a ride the other week and looking down the road I saw a bike coming towards me with a rider who had a very light coloured jacket on, almost white, while my brain immediately acknowledged a bike on the road there was certainly a delay for my brain to acknowledge that there were two bikes, the FRONT bike was in black. You can blame car drivers all you like for not being aware of bikes but that doesn't help you when you are in the ambulance on your way to hospital. As per the two posts it above some hi vis gear certainly can't hurt and one day it may just make the difference between being seen early or too late.