OzSTOC
Honda ST1100 Section => Honda ST1100 General Questions => Topic started by: alans1100 on December 09, 2013, 03:11:10 PM
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For one reason or another my final drive needs to be repaired and it's more than likely due to no/wrong grease when tyres were changed by respective dealers since I've had the bike.
I made mention of the final drive unit arriving a couple weeks ago in this post http://ozstoc.com/index.php?topic=5618.msg64215#msg64215 (http://ozstoc.com/index.php?topic=5618.msg64215#msg64215) and today 9/12/13 a very good used drive flange arrived from the UK.......Thanks to keith3po for that.
This change over will be all new for me and it also involves swapping over the gear case covers over as they are different on the ABS model. The ABS/TCS sensor mount and the gear cover are one casting and it may prove interesting as the sensor mounting bolts haven't been undone since new.
This is an old photo but gives you an idea of what I'm talking about.
(http://www.imghostr.net/images/2019/04/21/f6884cb133ff7f0014d43207525e37d6.jpg)
More to come once the weather improves and I can start working on the replacement drive unit.
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Good luck Alan, I ordered parts from Honda, x japan with no problems, went local for seals and bearings to be told some not stocked in Oz so had to go back to Honda, X japan again.
I may be lucky to have it on the road before the end of the year.
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I'm hoping I don't have to many dramas with the gear case cover and the driven gear. The manual says that if the gear comes out with the cover then press the gear out. So maybe looking at a new oil seal there plus the one in the drive shaft housing and new O-rings.
The few parts I will need I'll order from the US along with police light brackets etc which will make the postage cost worth it.
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I have been investigating this unit and my conclusion is that Honda have over engineered the final drive assembly thereby causing excessive wear to occur, this is caused by backlash induced through the flexing in the rubbers which in turn causes a small hammering effect on the drive splines gradually increasing as the splines wear. My XV750 which is 20 years older has the inner spline bolted to the wheel, no flexing and wear on the splines is not noticeable.
The type of grease used has a very minor effect as the grease cannot stop the wear caused by the backlash , as much as it pains me to say this HD got it right in using a belt, replace around 160k at a cost of $60, we have to replace rubbers, aluminium bushes and 3 O'rings every tyre change. If we get higher K's from a rear tyre we are causing more wear on the final drive by prolonging this change out.
I can see in the future ST1100's off the road because Honda have sold off all these wearing parts, the only way to avoid this will be put in a diff and convert to a trike.
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How is your fix going Yorkie Wot thuh
:wht11
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With the weather warming up I decided it was time to have a look at making a start on this fix up.
The used drive unit from the US need a bit of clean-up so it was out with the degreaser to do that yesterday. While I was at it I got the moly paste out and put some on the splines of the new flange drive and sat that in place overnight.
This morning it was time to get the cover off and attack it with a spanner or two.
First up is to remove the dust cover and there's one little bolt for that. See plastic tab at rear of drive.
(http://www.imghostr.net/images/2019/04/21/84ea06700a33da4df179621af5366ae9.jpg)
Then there's eight bolts that hold the cover on. Six were fairly easier but the two at the pinion end needed a little extra leverage/force. Nothing like an extra meter of pipe on the end of socket wrench to apply a bit more leverage is there?
(http://www.imghostr.net/images/2019/04/21/2178a3d11f27ae57c8733652a77062ea.jpg)
The cover needs to levered out of the housing with a screw driver and there are two locations provided for you to do that. What they don't tell in the manual is that when you lift the cover it will rotate as the cover and the ring come out together.
The cover is off and it's obvious I need to clean this up a little before I put it back together.
(http://www.imghostr.net/images/2019/04/21/55e935041e5c062bfd2be5b3a8c4d1a5.jpg)
The ring gear and cover need to be separated but this is how it comes out.
(http://www.imghostr.net/images/2019/04/21/8cdc0d7d2226eecc3faf81f5c0a7bd61.jpg)
A side view (sort of) ring gear as it came out.
(http://www.imghostr.net/images/2019/04/21/667cbd97128fd7a3875f57b2bd04f18d.jpg)
It is suggested in the manual that should the ring gear and cover come out together then press the gear out of the cover. With what and how I guess is left to your imagination. The wording suggests that usually the gear will stay in place as the cover is removed but I think they got it wrong. As with removing the cover from the housing I used a screw drive to gently lever the gear out of the cover.
The ring gear sitting back in the housing with the cover off.
(http://www.imghostr.net/images/2019/04/21/6317c0bbb17943b6d2c757399a79320e.jpg)
This is the cover which is going to be replaced with the one that is on my bike.
(http://www.imghostr.net/images/2019/04/21/8a64a275821043f84cdb3e4f66ea0b75.jpg)
That's all I can do for now. Next up is to remove the final drive unit from the bike but before I do that I need to get some sealant, a new oil seal, and some diff oil. I had a partly used bottle of oil somewhere but I can't find it anywhere. Quite possible it's been tossed or it will be found after I buy some more.
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How is your fix going Yorkie Wot thuh
:wht11
Have to wait for O'ring holder, in centre of Alans top pic, I couldn't remove it and hondashop had a go also, new from Japland.
I am still hoping for end of year however that is starting to look like a dream.
Yamaha can get me parts from Japan in 7 days, Honda take 3-4 weeks.
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I followed Alan's advice and just ordered the part I butchered, plus some fasteners, from Partzilla last night. Today I got a confirmatory email saying they will be posted on Monday by express post (the latter costing me $40 for $40 worth of parts).
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I started too early, should have waited for Alan, could have saved some time and money.
Maybe next time.
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How is your fix going Yorkie Wot thuh
:wht11
Have to wait for O'ring holder, in centre of Alans top pic, I couldn't remove it and hondashop had a go also, new from Japland.
I am still hoping for end of year however that is starting to look like a dream.
Yamaha can get me parts from Japan in 7 days, Honda take 3-4 weeks.
If your on about the oil seal in the centre of the gear case cover then it's a gentle push down with the outside of the cover being face up. I had a look at the one in the photo and removed it earlier this afternoon. Seal still looks ok, no apparent damage where it counts.
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Not the seal Alan, the part where the third O'ring is hidden in the centre, called O'ring holder by Honda.
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Not the seal Alan, the part where the third O'ring is hidden in the centre, called O'ring holder by Honda.
Oh!!! that one........I haven't tried to get that one out yet. I'll have a look tomorrow but the O-ring I have trouble finding is the one on the wheel. I see where it is supposed to be on the parts list but not when I take the wheel out. Not a drama, wheel bearings/cush-drive are on the to do list for next year.
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Both rear wheels I have are worn badly where the Oring fits, I used a length of .5mm metal to take up the slack in there, just another area which contributes to the overall wear on drive splines.
I am trying to work out how to bolt the inner spline to the hub, not easy as it has to be centred, solid and balanced, although I believe if it can be done will eliminate most wear on the splines.
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Yorkie
I was talking to Motorcycle Masters on Kewdale Road and they were talking about shimming the hub or drive. It may pay to give them a ring as they are doing a rear drive now.
Cheers
:wht11
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Will ring tomorrow, my concern is electrolysis between alloy and steel, I partly suspect Honda had that in mind when they put the O'ring in, there is nowhere else the 2 metals come into contact apart from sacrificial inserts in the rubbers.
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Speak to Paul there Yorkie. That is where I bought my bike :-)
Sent from my GT-I9100 using Tapatalk
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Yorkie
I was talking to Motorcycle Masters on Kewdale Road and they were talking about shimming the hub or drive. It may pay to give them a ring as they are doing a rear drive now.
Cheers
:wht11
Spoke to them this morning, final drive splines are shot and at this stage they have no idea what they are doing with it, apprentice has removed it and probably won't be touched again this year.
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After an e-mail enquiry to my dealer on Monday I ordered these parts today. I had to call them about the e-mail as I hadn't heard back. Their reply ended up in the junk folder and I must have missed it. All sorted now.
Please find price on parts & availability below
91263-MT3-005 OIL SEAL $13.20 nil stock will have to go on back order, eta 26/12 at Honda we wouldn’t see it until the new year.
91356-MG9-004 O-RING $4.50 in stock at Honda approx 2 days to me
91265-MY3-003 OIL SEAL $17.60 nil stock as above back order
and
I had to add the o-ring from the drive flange to order as well. 91358-MG9-003 is in stock and about $4 50.
ETA at the store is now 10 to 14 days and a couple days extra to my door.
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I had a phone call from my local dealer in Port Augusta yesterday (17th) saying parts had arrived. Cost of parts $40.50 plus $6 postage so they should arrive at my door middle of next week.
Now I just have to work out what would be the best sealant for when the gear case cover gets put back on.
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If its an area containing oil, then your auto store might have a gasket cement by loctite, that stays soft but seals very well. Makes it easy to remove next time.
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It is a machined face, I put mine back together as metal to metal, have done around 400k with no leaks.
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So far everything seems to have worked out ok but I have one slight issue.
The re-fill plug has been rounded off on the unit I got from the states. It must have been removed to empty the oil and then over-tightened before shipping to me.
Unlike the plastic one that was on my bike this a metal one. Essentially the bike is back together (tow bar to refit) but off the road as I can't refill the drive unit.
Any clues on getting this out?
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Hi Alan, perhaps an ezy out or using a hack saw to cut a slot for a large screwdriver to fit in!
Either way you will need a replacement bung. Hope this helps. The ezy out is probably the best bet.
Nigel
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Either way you will need a replacement bung.
Nigel
That's the easy part, I have that......lol
There's always C4 I guess but overkill in this case..........lol
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There's always C4 I guess but overkill in this case
I would strongly recommend not going in this direction. If not used correctly, the noise upsets the neighbours, and makes dogs hide. A plasma cutter (currently available in Bunnings) might be a better choice or oxy torch and angle grinder. :grin :grin :beer
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What a shame.......no C4 needed........so no bikes were harmed... filed one of the offending rounded off surfaces a little and that gave a hex socket enough to turn the plug, OH!!! and sprayed WD 40 on it yesterday.
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I've spent most of Thursday changing over the drive unit.
Getting the one off the bike only presented with two issues and that was I had to remove the rear shock and clearance issues for the tools I had for the nuts holding on the drive unit.
I ended up using the torque wrench, a universal joint extension fitted to a socket and that was ok for three nuts. The hardest one was the top outer nut so by removing the shock I could raise the swing arm to maximum height which gave just enough room to loosen the nut with one click at a time on the torque wrench.
It looked like I might have had a problem with the ABS sensor bolts but a little bit WD 40 did the trick and just to be different the dust cover that mounts the gear case cover has three bolts on the ABS model, not one like the base model.
(http://www.imghostr.net/images/2019/04/24/f4d44eff38d038103b303bc86f0d4e6c.jpg)
(http://www.imghostr.net/images/2019/04/24/028ff1db9a6f8d22b02c5a8d2708625f.jpg)
Before I took the drive off the swing arm I drained the oil and after 30,000 plus kms looked near new.
Drive is then taken off the swing arm, placed on the table and the gear case cover cleaned, bolts removed and then the cover and crown wheel come out together. These need to be separated and very gently so as not to damage anything. A thin bladed screw driver suited.
(http://www.imghostr.net/images/2019/04/24/6b3c6501aedd0eb37bbcc7f706b81409.jpg)
(http://www.imghostr.net/images/2019/04/24/5d4f6a95d692f4eb8545b923b75c664c.jpg)
My drive flange/spider showing worn splines.
(http://www.imghostr.net/images/2019/04/24/aa2707817817177bd36135e53eae7a3e.jpg)
I replaced the oil seal on the gear cover though the old one looked ok. Removed and cleaned the distance collar from my stuffed drive and placed said collar in the new unit. Next is to make sure the crown wheel sits in the gear cover and I hope I got this right. The gear cover placed on the drive unit and then the bolts tightened.
Sticking out the end of the swing arm is a little drive shaft so that comes out and is cleaned up. There's also an oil seal on the drive shaft which was replaced and then moly paste was put on both ends of the drive shaft which is then replaced in the swing arm. More moly paste put on the input drive shaft for the pinion wheel before the drive is placed on the swing arm. The seal is there to keep the grease on the driving splines.
(http://www.imghostr.net/images/2019/04/24/772cf3e0cd64b193bbda4bd0de45016f.jpg)
Nuts placed back on the four studs of the drive unit and hand tightened. The next critical part is to align the drive unit. Wheel is replaced as per usual procedure and axle bolt tightened which keeps everything lined up while the nuts that secure the drive unit to the swing arm are tightened. Once that is done the wheel is again removed as there’s usually one nut that can’t be tightened with wheel in place.
Before I put the wheel back in I gave it a clean up (miracle) as it’s easier off the bike.
On Thursday I couldn’t complete the work as at about 4pm it looked like rain so I had to stop work and Friday it rained most of day.
Last week we just about melt with the heat and 40C plus temps this week it’s raining and down about 20C.
As in a post or two prior I had an issue with the re-fill plug. Since the rain had stopped for awhile on Friday afternoon I thought it best to at least put the oil in before I forgot about it but that was not to be.
Today as posted before the plug is finally removed, the oil put in and the plug off my original drive unit is installed.
Only items needed to do now is to refit the tow bar and rear fender/mudguard and while I’m at it I checked and adjust tyre pressures.
While I was doing that Heather gave the bike a quick clean-up
So, it’s all done. A short test ride down the shop and all seemed ok. No unusual noises from the rear end and maybe a little quieter if anything. On Sunday we’ll do the 40 km ride over to Jamestown and see how it goes...
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Nice work Alan. Good to hear the changeover went OK.
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Well done, nice write up.
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All is good, a 80 km round trip a day or two after the repair and all quiet down in the final drive. Another 220km round trip yesterday as well and it seems everything is ok.
Coming back home in the afternoon the temp was 40C plus which might have added a little extra heat into the mix and last years cooling system fix certainly proved itself as the gauge stayed steady at about 1/4 of the normal range.
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Well done Alan...........we surprise ourselves sometimes with what we can achieve if we put our mind to it..........and can't really afford paying some other bugger to do it for us!! :thumb
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I have been doing alot of winter maintenance on the ST. Having completed a flush of the clutch and brake lines, the install of Sonic Springs in the forks along with new seals and dust covers, and a new Progressive 465 on the rear, alongwith an Evans coolant change, I thought I had better check on the rear splines.
I knew I had to check this out. I only purchased the ST in Nov 2013. It was a pristene bike with only 59k on the clock. I did my first real ride end of May early June 2014 after an engine oil change to PM L ubricatnts 10w40 and a rear drive oil change to PM's diff oil. I went to Brisbane from Melbourne in 2 days and experienced some Major Bumsore issues. After 4 days in Qld, it was time to head back. About 30 K's South of Balina, I lost my Avon Storm rear tire with a cut around 2 inches with wire protruding. I have no idea what caused this but what a pain that was. A friendly homeowner secured my bike and I hitched a ride back to Balina (Sunday ... No bike shops open). Stayed in a motel and waited for the Monday morning. As soon as the doors opened I was in and purchased a Metzler 60 profile replacement as the 70 was not available. When I took the wheel off, shock horror the spline was very dry and looked like it was rusty. This was now an urgent job.
To clean up and get some lubrication in there I decided to remove the rear drive unit. When the 4 bolts loosened at the swingarm/drive unit joint water started dripping. Honestly I was shocked to see how much water came out. I did not measure it but my guess is around 200 ml. Some discoloration on the iron pinion retaier was evident. The water though was clean. My guess is that it entered on my trip to Brisbane and back because I rode through a lot of rain. I imagine it entered past the drive unit / swingarm interface as there was no gasket.
Its all back together last night, with new O-rings and oil and Honda 60 on the splines. I checked the cush rubbers and they were in excellent condition. The spline showed wear but not too much. All in all I am very pleased with the result. Now I have to get all the plastic back on and I will be mobile again.
I just want to express my appreciaation to Yorkie and Alan1100 as their posts were extremly helpful. I was a bit daunted, but due to the posts and descriptions it was a breeze. I got pretty filthy as its a bit of a messy job, but very happy with the result and the knowledge that its all good and in great shape now.
It really amazed me that the previous owner could have put the Avons on and yet failed to lubricate and care for the drive.
Hats off the Allan & Yorkie.
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Well caught in time. It could be that the previous owner just took the bike in to the shop. I have seen other ones that had previously been to a tyre specialist and the splines looked like they never saw grease, the same rusty look and a bit of wear. I asked some years ago could I buy some moly off the local Honda dealer. They said they just used grease.
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Hi Saaz, I am not sure if you want Molly 60 but I have been selling it on ebay for months now and have 9 tubes left. I sell it for $30.00 post free to members. From Honda Australia via dealers its like $50.00 or more.
I am glad I caught it when I did thats for sure.
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Hi Saaz, I am not sure if you want Molly 60 but I have been selling it on ebay for months now and have 9 tubes left. I sell it for $30.00 post free to members. From Honda Australia via dealers its like $50.00 or more.
I am glad I caught it when I did thats for sure.
Free postage :eek I wish I new that yesterday when I ordered a tube, I could have saved $7.20 :well
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Not really, but thanks for the offer. I have been using a Molykote product that is good, and lately a Nulon PTFE high pressure grease that easily lasts between tyre changes. These days I use it more on mates STs during tyre changes.
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Hi Saaz, I am not sure if you want Molly 60 but I have been selling it on ebay for months now and have 9 tubes left. I sell it for $30.00 post free to members. From Honda Australia via dealers its like $50.00 or more.
I am glad I caught it when I did thats for sure.
Drat! I bought some from you a few weeks ago, and like Wild Rose, could have saved he postage. Never mind. :thumb