Pan Weave/Speed wobble....

[Diesel]

Every ST forum touches on this subject sooner or later. I believe the 1100s are immune to this problem, but some have, some haven't experienced it. You?

Here is a great article addressing most of the reported problems and a diagnosis of the symptoms....


http://www.ridethatbike.com/ST1300/ST%20wobble.htm

[saaz]

I would suggest that ST13 onwners not read the related part of that website with heaps of links to things you can spend money on.

[OzRider]

My 2c worth

When i first bought the ST rode the freeways of Perth and thought bloody hell especially in traffic sitting on 100ks the thing was all over the place, read somewhere the top box makes it worse, so off came the TB with some improvement.

Started to read some more info and decided because i had a large mass on the seat that I should crank up the rear spring and play around with the preload etc and also upgraded the oil in the front forks, outcome no wobble no weave, happy rider.

Currently i ride with it up a little more on the spring as most trips up here i have the Aux Fuel tank on plus camp gear etc I constantly run at speeds up to 160 sometimes more and no wobble.

Next step in  the new year are some new springs and gold valves in the front, so I can handle the 5 corners between Darwin and Alice Springs 

[Malcolm6112]

I found this at high speeds, i.e. above 170. I found that if I lowered the screen completely and lowered my torso to the tank it solved the issue.
Now that I have passed the phase of hooning, I don't go over 140, hence no more wobble.
 

[Greencan]

Arvo All...

My 2p worth also.

I remember going over to Honda MPE in Campbellfield about 3 months after the 1300's had been released in the UK / Europe and seeing a line of em all receiving replacement steering head bearings and having the main frame mounts re-torqued...probable explains why their release in Oz was a little over six months latter after the UK / Europe release.

This being so, I wonder how often 1300 owners re-check steering head bearings for preload, or replace the bearings (I notice that after 50-60k the 1100 has hammered significant 'D-dents' in the lower cones...tapered rollers), or have the main frame re-torqued, or pack no more than 4kg into the top box etc, etc.

While over in the IOM in 2007 (coincidentally just a couple of weeks after that coroners report mentioned in the link), I took a couple of pics of a Police bike and had a chat with it's Rider about the multitude of grumbles I'd read about the 1300's wobbles and woes. He said then that the UK Police (and the IOM Force), had decided on a 80mph limit for the bikes then in addition to removing all top loaded gear they had previously had on the bikes. But more surprisingly was his belief that the 'wobbles and woes' were integral with the 1300...anyway, I think he was a tad pissed as the Polizei had their Beemer 650's over with them and they were riding rings round them >:(

Alternatively, I guess that you 1300 Riders could always retro fit to the 1100's...at the very least that'll boost our resale value

Just a thought.

Ciao, the can :)

[Couch]

If we all stick to the speed limits (or slightly above) on Australian roads then none of us should ever have a problem with speed wobble on an ST1300.

On the few occasions when I've gone a bit troppo , I've never had a problem with speed wobble..........quite probably because I wasn't going fast enough...........but it was certainly fast enough for me .

Like most bikes............if you travel too close behind vehicles , particularly trucks, then you're going to pick up some turbulance, but it should never be a problem.

I haven't found the top box to make the slightest difference at speeds up to 120kph.......that's probably as fast as I've gone on the occasions when I've had my top box fitted.  If I'm riding solo I don't usually fit my top box unless I'm needing to carry equipment as it helps to keep the weight down.

[Couch]

Wonder what the speed restriction was??

Also wondering, who the fingers' for????????

This is a quote from another 'forum'..the ST1300 is/was being tested September 2011

"Mind you Honda have put a speed restriction on us due to the Pan Weave. So lets see how it goes this time."

Cheers 

Kev

[JuST Peter]

I've been reading this thread with interest since the subject came up, as I've not experienced any wobble of any description since owning the ST.
On the first occasion I let my head go, I got up to 160 kph one up without any hassle. On the second, I had my partner Pat on behind, and was riding the Colo Putty road heading toward the Grey Gum Cafe. Got as high as 150 before I realised I was catching up to a Highway Patrol car, so thought it wise to slow down.
On both occasions I had the screen up to its limit plus top-box without this wobble, so am wondering if it just affects individual bikes.

[West Aussie Glen]

From what I have read the concern is at well over 160 kph. Certainly I have had no trouble on the odd occassion I have reached 160 kph.
There is alot here about it:-
http://www.st1300.us.com/showthread.php?t=10&highlight=speed+wobbles

[Down Under]

When I upgraded my ST1300's suspension I was amazed at the difference in the bikes handling.  Dirty air in highway traffic, especially lightly loaded with top box, didn't seem to affect the bike much at all. 

I don't know how strongly related the "pan weave" is to suspension set up but the Racetech rebuild made a big improvement to handling and stability.

 I also wonder how much better the bike would be if Honda engineers had spent more time in the wind tunnel developing the bikes aerodynamics as I feel that this a contributing factor to way the bike reacts to dirty air, cross winds etc as well.

Tony

[Diesel]

Here is a link to an informative discussion on this topic by our American friends....

http://www.st-owners.com/forums/showthread.php?82917-I-am-so-relieved-no-more-wobble&p=995100#post995100

Hope this helps.

Cheers, Diesel

[Brock]

I think a lot of them are confusing the speed wobble with truck induced turbulence knock around. And then they seem to latch on and try to fight it instead of relaxing and letting the bike take care of its self.

[rendog]

My 03 definitely has it.
Some say it's caused by the wind deflecting from the mirrors and pushing the top box from side to side.
Cause the top box has rubber mounts that allow it to move around.
Set of wind deflectors on the mirrors is supposed to fix it. Dunno?
Lowering the windscreen makes a tiny difference.
Raising the pre-load on the rear shock makes a noticeable difference.
Putting the wife on the back makes a difference too.
Going even faster makes a difference but it's bloody hard work. 
Slowing down, however, seems to totally eliminate the issue. 
Go figure.

[West Aussie Glen]

rendog,
at what speed do you get it?

[alans1100]

As things go, I was looking for something not related to this issue but found this taken from this page. I haven't seen any mention of engine hanger bolts on other sites re this subject.

Not sure when 1300 made it into Australia but maybe some of these could have been shipped here and not recalled.

http://www.simonevans.co.uk/v-four/paneuro.htm#2002

STX gets a recall
In October 2002 Honda UK recalled its new Pan European after a few issues came to light. The most pressing was the sump pan, which could crack if it caught on a kerb. Other work done included:
- checking torque settings on engine hanger bolts, after owners reported a weave at high speed
- Heat shields and modified airflow past the rider's legs
- redesigned seat to avoid staples scratching the panels
For anyone concerned whether their UK-spec machine is affected you can use the owner pages on Honda's website (which will require you to fill in your address etc) or telephone the Honda UK motorcycle helpline on 01753 590510. If you visit the VOSA recall website make sure you select 'Honda Motorcycles' in the drop-down list.

 

Alan

[StinkyPete]

I have a 2008 ST and have never experienced the problem, under any load/speed conditions.   It is however, more affected by turbulant air while following other vehicles than my previous bike which was a Yamaha XJR1300 naked.  On the issue of a speed limit set by Honda, I note that the Owner's Manual states on page 5   "... never exceed 130 km/h (80 mph) when carrying cargo."     I raised the isue of "Pan Weave" with the Honda rep at their stand at the 2010 Phillip Island Superbikes.   He advised that Honda Australia had done some testing in NT, and found that the instability began at the front of the bike, from the way the air flows around the fairing, and that it is reduced or solved by fitting the fairing extension kit (sold by Honda of course).   I have never seen their test results published, and take the opinion with a grain of salt.  It would be useful to hear the opinion of an expert in gyroscopic motion on the subject.

[rendog]

I raised the isue of "Pan Weave" with the Honda rep at their stand at the 2010 Phillip Island Superbikes.   He advised that Honda Australia had done some testing in NT, and found that the instability began at the front of the bike, from the way the air flows around the fairing, and that it is reduced or solved by fitting the fairing extension kit (sold by Honda of course).   I have never seen their test results published, and take the opinion with a grain of salt.  It would be useful to hear the opinion of an expert in gyroscopic motion on the subject.

I have this fairing extension kit fitted to my bike. (Not the mirror ones though)
And believe me, it still wobbles.
Actually wobble isn't the right word.
It's more of a full body shake, like when someone walks over your grave.
It quickly turns into a bucking motion and it feels like the whole bike is twisting from side to side.
As for torque settings on head bearings; hmmmm.
Bit like fitting a steering damper to a sports bike me thinks.
Interesting reading though 

[Diesel]

Actually wobble isn't the right word.
It's more of a full body shake, like when someone walks over your grave.
It quickly turns into a bucking motion and it feels like the whole bike is twisting from side to side.

+1 on that Rendog - if you don't think you are about to instantly die! - then you probably haven't experienced it. The buffeting from dirty air behind trucks is nothing compared with the violent and ever increasing magnitude of the weave! You aren't even sure if will increase and throw you off as you back off and slow down through the 'barrier'. After you have had it happen, you are extremely alert to it coming on (as it starts small and builds up to be violent - hence throwing the UK Police officer off to his demise). You are constantly aware that it lays there - waiting for you to venture into its territory!

It doesn't automatically happen, and it doesn't happen at all sometimes, only when all the stars line up and conditions are conducive.

I have been through the barrier numerous times (on a closed road under test conditions of course) with no signs of it, but you can feel when it wants to come on, and I don't push it.

You can replicate this effect by wiggling your handlebars slightly at about a half to 1 second frequency.

[saaz]

While not on an ST13, I found that with a laminar lip on the ST11 standard screen the bike was noticeably a bit more stable in truck dirty air.  May have been a bit more downforce from the lip?  From all reports it seems like a combination of factors that vary from bike to bike, rider to rider.  A UK magazine did some tests on this a while back, changing various of the probably factors. Have to have another look.

PS after test riding the ST13 at the snowy ride it is hard to think that such a stable feeling bike could do this. Of course I did not go that fast ::)

[Greencan]

Arvo All... and calling Barry, are you there Barry?!?!...

As for torque settings on head bearings; hmmmm.
Bit like fitting a steering damper to a sports bike me thinks.

...if you do happen to read this Baz, you might just be able to convince other ST owners how important steering head bearings are when it comes to solving a lot of their (your)woes

These bikes weigh in at over 300kg (indisputable), before you climb on top of em...albeit an 1100 or a 1300 same deal...they are balanced so that 55% of that weight is over the front wheel...all the 1300's (as far as I know), in Oz have had the recirculating balls and cups replaced with tapered rollers and I'd venture to say that most of the 1100's have had theirs replaced at some time in the past as well. Tapered roller bearings do improve the ST's performance...but here's the thing.

There are bearings and then there are bearings...that is to say there is some absolute rubbish metals out there, so firstly materials is the first 'elephant in the room' .

Then once fitted there is literally a motza of varying views to just how much pre-load should be placed on the bearings.

And this bearing (and I use the singular as it's really only the lower load bearing I refer to in this context),  was never designed to be loaded through it's axis! And then never to be revolved. At best the rollers will only ever rotate 2 - 4mm in their entire life.  So, what happens, they 'D-dent' their cones. 

The result of this is the front wheel wants only to track to the D-dent (usually dead straight), irrespective of all other inputs like wake turbulence, tyre pressures, tyre wear, etc,etc...the end result is a wobble / weave whatever.

I find that my bikes will knacker Japanese NTN GP bearings every 50-60k...regardless of having re-torqued them at around 25-30k. The only option is to either replace it...or...if you know how, to rotate the cone so that the 'D-dent' is now outside the centre line (bush mechanics).  Furthermore, I found that the 15-20lbs/inch that was the OEM recommendation for the recirculating ball and cups works equally as well for the tapered rollers.

As Barry has already made mention of in a heading in another thread..."check the simple things first"...or words to that effect.

Ciao, the can :)

[Diesel]

I think i have uploaded a video of pan weave - it certainly felt like the bike was doing this to me....

look here...

http://tinypic.com/player.php?v=jzy6hv&s=5

[Gavo]

That looks nasty

[Greencan]

I think i have uploaded a video of pan weave

Crickey Diesel, that's not a weave, that's a tank slapper .