Author Topic: Darkside on the horizon.  (Read 10430 times)

Offline Piet

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 278
  • Thanked: 27 times
  • Caroline Springs, Victoria.
Darkside on the horizon.
« on: April 30, 2015, 10:18:53 PM »
 I have a GL1500 rim on it way.  Tyre 175/75-16 tyre tomorrow so Darkside is definitely on my horizon.  Still a bit of machining to organise but it doesn't look to difficult. Updates to follow.
Rides:
ST1100P 2004 Darkside
VTX1800C 2008 V&H pipes (sold)
 

Online Shiney

  • Dave
  • Global Moderator
  • UNBELIEVABLE "5000 Posts" Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 6707
  • Thanked: 2319 times
  • RTE Coordinator - Strathpine, QLD
Re: Darkside on the horizon.
« Reply #1 on: May 01, 2015, 01:55:55 AM »
 :popcorn :popcorn :popcorn
My Ride: 2023 ST1800   :thumb
OzSTOC #104   STOC# 8512   IBA # 59142
Find me in The Who's Who of OzSTOC!

I like shiney things :grin
One of the Dave, Dave, Dave and Duncan crew 8)
 

Offline Piet

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 278
  • Thanked: 27 times
  • Caroline Springs, Victoria.
Re: Darkside on the horizon.
« Reply #2 on: May 02, 2015, 03:10:06 PM »
Picked up the Austone (Comes from Australia #one) 175/75R16 this morning.  Looks good, it has an 8 ply rating but actually has on the tread 2 plys of polyester 2 plys of steel and a single ply of Nylon, and 2 ply polyester on the side walls. 
The speed rating is Q so to a max of 99 MPH or 160 kph.
The load rating is 101 so 825 kgs.

The trye tread pattern is called CSR71  http://austonetire.com/products-view.aspx?id=116

I paid $100.00. I also purchased a week prior a Michelin Commander II (cruzer tyre) 160/70-17 standard tyre for $239.00 and that was cheap because most wanted to charge $269.00
Interestingly having two brand new tyres to compare I measured the thread depth of both.  The Michelin has a 6.6 mm depth and the Austone has an 8.6 mm depth so a 30% increase on the Michelin.

I have not yet mounted the Austone on a rim, but if my understanding is correct, it will stand 13mm taller, 15mm wider and drop wheel revs per distance travelled by 2%.
Speedo being front wheel on the ST11, it will still read correctly and engine revs lowered a tad for a given road speed.

Of course I will be tracking milage carefully and reporting on handling, just remember I  am more a tourer than peg scraper.
« Last Edit: May 10, 2015, 02:34:25 PM by Piet »
Rides:
ST1100P 2004 Darkside
VTX1800C 2008 V&H pipes (sold)
 

Offline StinkyPete

  • Defected to a BMW
  • NR2016 Group
  • UNBELIEVABLE "5000 Posts" Member
  • *
  • Posts: 6533
  • Thanked: 2946 times
  • Blackwood, SA
Re: Darkside on the horizon.
« Reply #3 on: May 02, 2015, 03:24:17 PM »
I had a mate who went to the darkside with his Suzuki Boulevard M109.   It took a fair bit of experimentation with tyre pressures to find something that worked, and he eventually settled on 26psi.    Higher that that, if you think of the flat on the bottom of the car tyre, the tyre is trying to lift the bike as it corners, thus strongly resisting the turn.   With the lower pressure, some sidewall distortion occurs and handling is reasonable.
IBA #59146   OzLapper 2012 & 2019

Yamaha XS650  (The Black Wobbler)
Yamaha XJR1300 (Rocket Ship)
Honda ST1300 (Beautiful Bike)
BMW R1200RT (Technically Perfect)
 

Offline Piet

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 278
  • Thanked: 27 times
  • Caroline Springs, Victoria.
Re: Darkside on the horizon.
« Reply #4 on: May 02, 2015, 03:28:30 PM »
From all my reading and research, I think you are spot on. I will start at 26psi and be prepared adjust as necessary.
« Last Edit: May 03, 2015, 08:51:09 PM by Piet »
Rides:
ST1100P 2004 Darkside
VTX1800C 2008 V&H pipes (sold)
 

Offline StinkyPete

  • Defected to a BMW
  • NR2016 Group
  • UNBELIEVABLE "5000 Posts" Member
  • *
  • Posts: 6533
  • Thanked: 2946 times
  • Blackwood, SA
Re: Darkside on the horizon.
« Reply #5 on: May 02, 2015, 03:40:35 PM »
 :popcorn
IBA #59146   OzLapper 2012 & 2019

Yamaha XS650  (The Black Wobbler)
Yamaha XJR1300 (Rocket Ship)
Honda ST1300 (Beautiful Bike)
BMW R1200RT (Technically Perfect)
 

Offline Biggles

  • NatRally 2018 - Mackay
  • "Top Dog" 10000 club
  • *
  • Posts: 14026
  • Thanked: 2474 times
  • Bridgeman Downs, Brisbane
Re: Darkside on the horizon.
« Reply #6 on: May 03, 2015, 01:17:00 PM »
:popcorn

I trust it's just an academic interest!     :eek

The thought of leaning on a tyre that is cooperating by distorting its walls doesn't sound like my idea of safe engineering.
For the modern man who lives in the city, riding a bike might be one of the only ways to escape the humdrum monotony. To take off and ride. To be both at one with nature and one with the bike. To feel masculine. Adam Piggott

OzSTOC #16  STOC #6135  FarR #509  IBA #54927
 

Offline StinkyPete

  • Defected to a BMW
  • NR2016 Group
  • UNBELIEVABLE "5000 Posts" Member
  • *
  • Posts: 6533
  • Thanked: 2946 times
  • Blackwood, SA
Re: Darkside on the horizon.
« Reply #7 on: May 03, 2015, 05:47:38 PM »
Biggles, my interest is curiosity only.  Darksiding on the Boulevard has been reasonably successful for the two that I know who have done it, and the cost saving was enormous.    Over $600 for the std Boulevard rear, compared to $125 for a Commodore tyre.

My advice from a Forensic Vehicle Examiner is that darkside is legal, but I would not be prepared to do it on my ST and sacrifice my sharp handling just to save a few dollars.
IBA #59146   OzLapper 2012 & 2019

Yamaha XS650  (The Black Wobbler)
Yamaha XJR1300 (Rocket Ship)
Honda ST1300 (Beautiful Bike)
BMW R1200RT (Technically Perfect)
 

Offline Piet

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 278
  • Thanked: 27 times
  • Caroline Springs, Victoria.
Re: Darkside on the horizon.
« Reply #8 on: May 03, 2015, 06:31:25 PM »
The purpose I had in mind in starting this thread was just in case others found it interesting and for perhaps the minority who might want to obtain first hand experience in Darksiding and then be in a position to make their own judgements. 
I know full well this is one of those topics that many just feel they have to express a strong opinion, to which they are entitled, but have not perhaps had first hand experience.  I have not had that experience yet I am going to obtain it.  In the mean time, I am unable to offer a comment too strongly without knowing what I am talking about.  When it comes to the Darkside I would need to know just what it feels like and be experienced enough to make a valued comment.

When it come to motor cycles, what I do know is that from day one guys have made modifications, additions farkels, choppers, bobbers, cafe racers, you name it they have done it.  I love that about bikes and it applies to all motor heads.   Tyres on bikes initially used car tyre technology.  The Michelin web site make this comment about tyre construction. (Not application specific)

"A radial tire allows the sidewall and the tread to function as two independent features of the tire."
"A bias tire consists of multiple rubber plies over lapping each other. The crown and sidewalls are interdependent.  The overlapped plies form a thick layer that is less flexible and more sensitive to overheating."

With radials on bike car truck and tractor now becoming the norm, some side wall flex is definitely engineered into all radials.    It is funny, but I bet there has been many a person who may have made comments like "Jamming an 1100cc water cooled car engine into a bikes frame is sheer madness".
He was probably correct but I tell you straight up, it is a madness I share with great passion".

May we one an all enjoy the ride and let the rubber hit the road.


« Last Edit: January 21, 2021, 11:24:13 AM by Piet »
Rides:
ST1100P 2004 Darkside
VTX1800C 2008 V&H pipes (sold)
 

Offline winston66

  • Legendary Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 505
  • Thanked: 47 times
  • 1996 Yamaha Royal Star XVZ13, 2003 ST 1300,others
Re: Darkside on the horizon.
« Reply #9 on: May 03, 2015, 09:44:24 PM »
  :hatwave :runyay :wht13 :rd13

 A thought  from  Winston66,
I have two identical  ST1300 motorcycles ,apart from some cosmetics  , and some minor mechanical modifications  and with an age difference of 4 years.
One of these rides is fitted with the optional  Darksiders rear tire, so I have been able to test and compare and qualify the various aspects of this sort of modification to a high powered modern Touring motorcycle.
I will not enter into any argument or speculation as to which, how , or where, either or the other, is better , worse , safer, or in any way different , to the other.
I feel that the whole premise, of which , or where, is open and over to the driver  to experience and make a judgment for them selves.
.
In reference to the proceeding post of Piet's
Which mentioned cross ply tires, (in regard to cars, I think)?
 This brings me to the question that I waned to ask.
Can anyone tell me , without starting an argument.

How many and what  manufacturers and brands of motorcycle tire are RADIAL construction, and similarly how many manufacturers and brands of similar sizes of motorcycle tires are of a cross ply construction?
can anyone quantify  a list, for those that might be interested, in  possibly comparing the relative benefits of either type of construction in the manufacturer of motorcycle tires.
Cheers to all

Winston 66, Northampton Western Australia

 :rd13 :think1 :OldMan

winston66 Northampton
Ulysses #56870
Current Rides,
1996 Yamaha XVZ 1300 Royal Star,
2003 ST 1300 A (red)
Mazda Miata MX5 Turboed 14 sec.
2006 ST 1300 ABS Ex Police (white)
Honda CT 110 Postie, (Being rebuilt)
 

Offline winston66

  • Legendary Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 505
  • Thanked: 47 times
  • 1996 Yamaha Royal Star XVZ13, 2003 ST 1300,others
Re: Darkside on the horizon.
« Reply #10 on: May 03, 2015, 09:55:33 PM »
Winston66, here.
In regard to my previous post, where I mention CROSS PLY TIRES, I meant to say , BIAS CONSTRUNCTION,
Cheers , Winston66
winston66 Northampton
Ulysses #56870
Current Rides,
1996 Yamaha XVZ 1300 Royal Star,
2003 ST 1300 A (red)
Mazda Miata MX5 Turboed 14 sec.
2006 ST 1300 ABS Ex Police (white)
Honda CT 110 Postie, (Being rebuilt)
 

Offline Diesel

  • Administrator
  • Supreme "2000" Club Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3936
  • Thanked: 793 times
  • QUEEEENSLANDER!!!!
    • The Review Guys
Re: Darkside on the horizon.
« Reply #11 on: May 04, 2015, 11:45:00 AM »
Very interested in your findings Piet and Winston...


I have toyed with this thought myself - especially if towing a bike trailer for a lap of Oz.

In these vids - I can't see at any time where the car tyre has less road contact than a bike tyre...


   
   
   
   
Darkside Motorcycle Tire Webcam

   
   
   
   
Riding on the Darkside - car tire on a motorcycle - contact patch
The main topic that is hard to answer, is whether your insurance will cover this mod - apparently some don't care, and some say def NO!


I also have 2 questions - why a Goldwing rim? Is there no darkside tyre to suit ST rim?

Thanks for posting.    :thumbs

Cheers, Dissel
« Last Edit: May 04, 2015, 11:52:19 AM by Diesel »
FarRider #416   IBA #55491  
OzSTOC Life Member
:candystwheelie       www.dieselst1300.blogspot.com.au
 

Offline saaz

  • Supreme "2000" Club Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 4542
  • Thanked: 41 times
  • Canberra ACT
Re: Darkside on the horizon.
« Reply #12 on: May 04, 2015, 03:13:52 PM »
Tyres to fit the ST1100 rear rim are hard to come by. The Goldwing rim gives a lot more choice, plus you still have the ST rim with a normal tyre on if needed.

The ST1300 is a lot easier to find tyres for.

Years ago I tried the first 'radial' motorcycle tyres, the Pirelli MP7s. They were fantastic with grip and life, and far better in the we than bias tyres at the time. Motorcycle radial tyres are not true radials like car ones, as a motorcycle tyre need some bias type construction in there. GT versions of raiald tend to have a bit more bias construction but with some radial benefits.

The ST1100 came out with bias tyres, but radial tyres have been used successfully for years. Personally, I would never go back to bias tyres.


Some discussion on the differences and benefits

http://www.revzilla.com/common-tread/why-things-are-bias-ply-and-radial-tires
John
(Ridden on and forever in our hearts)
1996 Honda ST1100P
2014 Triumph Trophy SE
Ozstoc, STOC #7239, Farrider #461 Ulysses #061681, IBA #59143 and some others
 

Offline winston66

  • Legendary Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 505
  • Thanked: 47 times
  • 1996 Yamaha Royal Star XVZ13, 2003 ST 1300,others
Re: Darkside on the horizon.
« Reply #13 on: May 04, 2015, 04:17:18 PM »


 :runyay :rd13   :OldMan

 Winston66 here,
About the insurance question,
Shannons,

My insurance company said to me=
We will insure and cover any modification that you make to your vehicle providing that the mods. are LEGAL.
.
That said , when I advised them about my fitment of a car type tire to the ST the subsequent endorsement that they placed on my policy document for that Motorcycle, stated that the Motorcycle . was fitted with a MOTOR VEHICLE TIRE !!!!!!!

Now I ask you--
What is it about a motorcycle in that it is somehow different to, and is not classified as a motor vehicle?

DO you get the drift of my question?

Is this any food for thought.

Cheers Winston66


 :rd13 :wht13 :think1
winston66 Northampton
Ulysses #56870
Current Rides,
1996 Yamaha XVZ 1300 Royal Star,
2003 ST 1300 A (red)
Mazda Miata MX5 Turboed 14 sec.
2006 ST 1300 ABS Ex Police (white)
Honda CT 110 Postie, (Being rebuilt)
 

Offline Piet

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 278
  • Thanked: 27 times
  • Caroline Springs, Victoria.
Re: Darkside on the horizon.
« Reply #14 on: May 05, 2015, 10:30:24 AM »
As a start to come up with tyre list to quantify tyres as per Winston's question please find this excel spread sheet.
Guys the data might be incorrect so PLEASE make corrections.  I just wanted to get the list started.
Rides:
ST1100P 2004 Darkside
VTX1800C 2008 V&H pipes (sold)
 

Offline Piet

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 278
  • Thanked: 27 times
  • Caroline Springs, Victoria.
Re: Darkside on the horizon.
« Reply #15 on: May 05, 2015, 10:47:02 AM »
How good would it be to be in Winston's position to have a bike setup for each configuration?

Diesel,  I tend to agree that contact area looks pretty good.  Gone are the days when I used to like scraping the pegs.  I no longer want scar tissue like what I have in my left hip where bitumen & road grim now look like a badly smudged tattoo.  Quite content to stay upright.  So it all depends on riding style and what we might want out of the ride.

In answer to the question regarding the GL rim.  Due to the ST11 being fairly narrow in the swingarm, you cant get a CT narrow enough to fit the std 17" rim.  Going to the GL 16" rim you can get some tyres 175/xx-16 that will work.

I am planning on having everything set-up so I can swap over really quickly.  I will maintain the ability to run standard rim/sizing and then swap over to the GL/CT.  In fact I have just purchased from Shaun his rear brake hanger so that I don't have to touch my original hanger.
Rides:
ST1100P 2004 Darkside
VTX1800C 2008 V&H pipes (sold)
 

Offline Piet

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 278
  • Thanked: 27 times
  • Caroline Springs, Victoria.
Re: Darkside on the horizon.
« Reply #16 on: May 10, 2015, 09:59:58 PM »
Wheels prepared. 
This first photo shows both the standard wheel with Michelin Commander II 160/70-17 and the 16" Gold Wing rim with 175-75-16 car tyre fitted.  Both have new bearings, oil seals, cushion rubbers and the 3rd "O" ring fitted.  You will note that the Darkside tyre is a bit taller.



A 2nd shot showing the tread patterns and the difference in height.



This last shot is just the flip side of the wheels.  I wanted to take the photo's prior to some rain that was coming so I had not finished putting in the cushion rubbers on the ST rim, and the retainer.



All that remains is the machining but I might be a bit delayed on this.  As soon as I get that done I will post a few more photo's.
Rides:
ST1100P 2004 Darkside
VTX1800C 2008 V&H pipes (sold)
 

Online Shiney

  • Dave
  • Global Moderator
  • UNBELIEVABLE "5000 Posts" Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 6707
  • Thanked: 2319 times
  • RTE Coordinator - Strathpine, QLD
Re: Darkside on the horizon.
« Reply #17 on: May 12, 2015, 06:22:25 PM »
Looking good so far :thumbsup

 :popcorn :popcorn :popcorn
My Ride: 2023 ST1800   :thumb
OzSTOC #104   STOC# 8512   IBA # 59142
Find me in The Who's Who of OzSTOC!

I like shiney things :grin
One of the Dave, Dave, Dave and Duncan crew 8)
 

Offline Piet

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 278
  • Thanked: 27 times
  • Caroline Springs, Victoria.
Re: Darkside on the horizon.
« Reply #18 on: May 26, 2015, 08:44:38 PM »
Started the machining of the new spacers etc today.  It's getting closer.  Will take pictures of the items machined and then post, along with the dimensions I used.  Just in case someone else wants to give it a go. 
Rides:
ST1100P 2004 Darkside
VTX1800C 2008 V&H pipes (sold)
 

Offline Piet

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 278
  • Thanked: 27 times
  • Caroline Springs, Victoria.
Re: Darkside on the horizon.
« Reply #19 on: June 02, 2015, 09:30:43 PM »
OK ... here goes with some of the pieces made up for the changeover to the darkside.

First up is the spacer / thrust washer that leaves the drive spline fully engaged yet moves the wheel over by ¼ inch.



It does not need the bevel on the edge, but it makes no difference.



Thrust washer inserted.



Now its time to attach it to the wheel.  Please note that the grey/white thrust washer is now between the bearing and drive spline unit.



Next is the slip fit spacer that goes over the final drive's axel collar and also adds ¼ inch to move the rim over to the left.



It slips over by about ¼ inch and extends the collar by ¼ inch.



This photo is of course the std rear drive shaft spline and the axel collar in the middle.



Collar extension slipped on and in place.



That takes care of the ¼ inch shift to the left.

Now because the GL1500 rim is 1" narrower that the std ST11 rim ... we need to make a replacement left side axel spacer that inserts in the LHS oil seal and butts up to the brake calliper.  This next shot shows the original on the left and the new unit on the right being 25.4mm longer than the original.





Lastly we have to shave off ¼ inch off the brake calliper.



I wanted to also machine up ¼ washers so I could go back to standard dimensions and wheel in a flash.
This is the washer for the calliper mount on the axel.



This is the same for the brake calliper locking pin.



Just in case anyone is interested,  If they has an ABS-TCS brake calliper the ¼ shave is required but the calliper is slightly different.  This next shot is the ABS-TCS 3 pot calliper bracket.



Side by Side:



Line it all up and slip the axel through:

« Last Edit: June 02, 2015, 09:45:30 PM by Piet »
Rides:
ST1100P 2004 Darkside
VTX1800C 2008 V&H pipes (sold)
 

Offline West Aussie Glen

  • old fart
  • Supreme "2000" Club Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3154
  • Thanked: 839 times
  • Willetton, Perth
Re: Darkside on the horizon.
« Reply #20 on: June 02, 2015, 11:46:10 PM »
Looking Good
Glen
Sold
1948 James 98cc 2 Speed, 1969 Suzuki A100-2
1970 Suzuki T250 Hustler, Honda CL100
Yamaha RD250C, 1985 Kawasaki GPZ250
BMW K75S, 78 Yamaha XS11
Yamaha Royal Star Tour Deluxe, 88 GL1500
99 SE GL1500
In the shed
85 Kawasaki LTD250
88 GL1500 Outfit
08 ST1300
2013 GL1800
2013 GL1800 Outfit
 

Online Shiney

  • Dave
  • Global Moderator
  • UNBELIEVABLE "5000 Posts" Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 6707
  • Thanked: 2319 times
  • RTE Coordinator - Strathpine, QLD
Re: Darkside on the horizon.
« Reply #21 on: June 03, 2015, 08:34:06 AM »
:clap :clap :clap
opcorn opcorn opcorn

Sent from my SM-N9005 using Tapatalk

My Ride: 2023 ST1800   :thumb
OzSTOC #104   STOC# 8512   IBA # 59142
Find me in The Who's Who of OzSTOC!

I like shiney things :grin
One of the Dave, Dave, Dave and Duncan crew 8)
 

Offline Col

  • Cojomo
  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 27
  • Thanked: 3 times
  • New to ST
Re: Darkside on the horizon.
« Reply #22 on: August 10, 2015, 04:12:11 PM »
A guy I work with has a Victory cruiser, and the factory rear lasted less than 6000ks. He put a car tyre on it, a lot wider than the one in this blog. I happened to follow him in to work one day and due to the camber on the road, only the right third of the tread made contact, however this was probably still comparable to my bike tyre. He says he took a few days to get used to cornering on it, with more countersteer required to get it leaning and to hold it there. Strangely he says it tracks badly all over the surface irregularities when driving STRAIGHT now, and I expected that to be equal or better than the original tyre. When I first rode a bike, it was full-on concentration all the time, but over the years it has become automatic. Sometimes my ST1100 takes me home and I hardly remember riding it! I imagine going to the darkside would be a few steps back in the learning curve until I unlearn and relearn as required.
However I do like leaning my bike on corners (Yes, weird but true) and his bike is a Victory cruiser, not a sports tourer. He had it over scraping the footpegs and looks comfortable doing it, but my bike leans further on its sidestand than the Victory does when cornering so if your riding style is cruising, try the darkside. Plenty of people have and love it. If a suitable tyre fitted without those modifications I'd give it a go.
2000 ST1100 since July 2014
BMW K100RS 2007-2014
 

Offline mr2u

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Posts: 87
  • Thanked: 21 times
  • ST Legend
Re: Darkside on the horizon.
« Reply #23 on: March 29, 2016, 11:20:31 PM »
Hi, Just wondering if there is any updates from members that may have gone to the Darkside  (Piet).
Have you stuck with the CT or gone back to a MCT ?

If you have stayed with the car tyre, how has the experience been? any pros or cons?



Mr2u
 :blk13
They say money cant buy happiness, but i say it can get you a damn good bike!
 

Offline Col

  • Cojomo
  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 27
  • Thanked: 3 times
  • New to ST
Re: Darkside on the horizon.
« Reply #24 on: March 29, 2016, 11:38:32 PM »
My friend with the victory has done a major trip down South and when asked about the tyre he delays his answer as if trying to think of positives. Tyre life is great, handling and ride are not, he will replace it agàin with a car tyre but a narrower one. Tyre pressures are critical and he still seems to be experimenting
2000 ST1100 since July 2014
BMW K100RS 2007-2014
 
The following users thanked this post: Shiney, ST2UP