OzSTOC

Honda ST1100 Section => Suspension ST1100 => Topic started by: Garry_Coates on November 06, 2014, 06:52:53 PM

Title: Melbourne Suspension Revalve
Post by: Garry_Coates on November 06, 2014, 06:52:53 PM
Hi I have been running my 1995 ST1100 for most of its life (128k) with:
1. White Power progressive forksprings, 10 wt oil, now with new seals and bushings
2. Nitron gas rear shock with ride height, compression and rebound dampening.

It is probably about 80% of its potential.

I should consider getting the nitron rebuilt soon and would like to find somebody in/ close to Melbourne who knows the ST suspension quite well as I would like to take the next step in realising its potential.

I have had two dirt bikes (XR600, txc310) revalved/ resprung for my size (196 cm tall, 115 kgs) it has made a huge difference. However, these shops do not know the ST.

There are plenty of guys around that will do the work for you at a price but it is guess work.

I am therefore interested suspension revalving work you have had done in/close to Melbourne.

Regards
          Garry
Title: Re: Melbourne Suspension Revalve
Post by: Garry_Coates on December 05, 2014, 06:32:08 PM
I note that I have had plenty of views but no feedback on Melbourne suspension tuners. This confirms my own feedback.

In the mean time while doing more research I have found some useful information:

1. The OEM spring on rear shock has a progressive rate from 285 to 365 lbs/inch. This is where an average rate of 325 lb per inch comes from.
2. Those of us who use the WP proline fork spring 9932.0203.A have a progressive rate from 0.92 to 1.22 kg/mm. This works pretty well throughout the range and I would only consider a straight rate 1.2 if get the forks re-valved to suit.
3. WP recommended only 428 lb/inch rear springs for their ST shocks which is at the low end of the range of after market shock springs. I run a 425 spring on the Nitron that was guess work at the time in 2005. I am probably now convinced to consider a 475 inch/inch. Others have used/recommended up to 575 lbs which seems very hard for our bumpy roads.

I am interested in what those that have changed the fork valving have found. For example:

1. Does the ABS side really have any compression dampening when brakes not applied? I assume it has minimal rebound.

2. Is it possible to replace the ABS side fork internals with the cartridge components from the RHS. Has anybody done this?

Hi SAAZ I understand you have changed the valving on both sides? Anybody else?

Regards
           Garry
Title: Re: Melbourne Suspension Revalve
Post by: alans1100 on December 05, 2014, 07:03:53 PM


1. Does the ABS side really have any compression dampening when brakes not applied? I assume it has minimal rebound.

2. Is it possible to replace the ABS side fork internals with the cartridge components from the RHS. Has anybody done this?

Regards
           Garry



Ok, you have the first generation ABS which is an add on to the standard 1100 and what you see as the ABS on the LH fork is probably the anti-dive unit attached to the lower calliper. It's the reason why the internals are different on each side.

Item 36 here http://www.st-1100.com/st1100-parts-fiche-front-fork-st1100as.html (http://www.st-1100.com/st1100-parts-fiche-front-fork-st1100as.html)

At nearly 169,000 km on mine I don't have an issue with the OEM progressive fork set up apart from the usual fork seal replacement.

You could check out http://www.suspensionshop.org/index.php (http://www.suspensionshop.org/index.php) they're located northern suburbs of Adelaide
Title: Re: Melbourne Suspension Revalve
Post by: Piet on December 05, 2014, 07:12:24 PM
Hi Garry,

I did go for 1.2 Kg/mm fixed rate springs in my non ABS forks.  I am very happy with them.  I do feel that I have much more travel available, they feel good and it certainly gives the impression of being more stable.  I will off set that by saying I don't push it hard so I am no expert.  Regarding the rear, I chose Progressive 465's and am very dissappointed in the rebound adjuster.  It lacks feel.  I don't know that its works correctly.  In fact it is so sloppy I would guess that it is not adjusting anything.  Very dissappointed.

I hope you find someone technically savy on the ST susspension that can help you with the re-valve possibility.  I am very interested but am unable to help in any way.  Whatever you find please keep us informed.  I for one watch this space with interest.
Title: Re: Melbourne Suspension Revalve
Post by: Garry_Coates on December 05, 2014, 08:43:41 PM
Hi Alans100 and Piet. Thanks for the feedback. I replaced my fork springs in the first year because of chronic understeer for my 115 ks weight. The standard OEM springs are only 0.61 kg/mm which is not much more than I run on my XR600 which is 139 kgs wet. In fact most tuner graphs show them too soft for just the bike weight with no rider.

I understand the ABS fork internals (non-cartridge) as that type was in all my bikes until ST (23 years). What I do not understand is is exactly how Honda has got both dampening types working together. Is all the rebound on the cartridge side ?

The two biggest improvements the Nitron rear shock gave me was ride height adjustment and rebound. Ride height took 50kgs of the steering. Getting rebound right also the improved the dampening at the front! It would patter and I thought it was not compliant. Piet I would suggest finding a shop that services your shock because something sounds wrong.

Regards
          Garry
Title: Re: Melbourne Suspension Revalve
Post by: saaz on December 06, 2014, 09:51:29 AM
Garry, sorry to reply late but travelling. Standard, the anti dive side should stiffen up compression damping to stop dive, but this hardens it up when you might need some travel for bumps. With a damper rod setup changing the fork oil weight affects damping. If you search for gold valve emulator there is information about damper rods and how they work. Rebound from memory is there but relies on the weight of the fork oil, but changing this also affects compression damping unless you change the size of the holes. So a damper rod can be tricky to set up as competing issues.

I have fitted a gold valve emulator and progressive fork springs. A straight weight spring did not suit my setup as I have a four ales rear shock, which is an air spring so progressive.

The cartridge in one side may well fit in the other as how they attach down the bottom seems the same.

The cartridge has compression and rebound by changing shim stacks. I would not bother upgrading them as I found the replacements to be very similar.

The benefit of the gold valve emulator is that the front end moves consistently over bigger bumps, rather that stiffening up the more the forks compress. I noticed this first ride up around Oberon when I hit some big bumps that would have jarred badly before, but even set too stiff they were handled easily.
Title: Re: Melbourne Suspension Revalve
Post by: Garry_Coates on December 06, 2014, 08:33:14 PM
Hi SAAZ,
         thanks for your reply. I appreciate your feedback on the damper rods and cartridge but I am a little surprised. I have had other cartridge forks re-valved and they have been much better. This could be because I tend to use much heavy springs than stock and the standard valving could not be easily adjusted to suit. Dampening for 0.61 kg/mm springs is hardly going to be adequate 1.2 k/mm. Rebound will be way off.

What you have also confirmed is that both forks share compression and rebound duties which must give some interesting results if they are set-up differently.

I do favour the idea of using cartridges in both forks and would go to closed cartridges if I could find somebody with experience in doing this for the ST. 

 "I would not bother upgrading them as I found the replacements to be very similar."

Do you mean that the racetech shim stack recommendations where very similar to stock or that the replacement parts looked similar ? 

Regards
          Garry

 
Title: Re: Melbourne Suspension Revalve
Post by: Lionel on December 06, 2014, 10:16:55 PM
 Saaz " ... as I have a four ales rear shock ..."
What made you choose four ales?
Why not a six pack?
Title: Re: Melbourne Suspension Revalve
Post by: saaz on December 07, 2014, 05:40:23 PM
Replacement shims and recommended shims seemed very similar. The main difference was getting the emulator adjustment right. Initial recommendation was way too stiff but rode bumps ok.
Title: Re: Melbourne Suspension Revalve
Post by: Garry_Coates on December 07, 2014, 06:51:33 PM
Thanks Saaz,
          I am not convinced that the Racetech recommendations tools work that well. ST1100 fork spring rates are generally much lower than others for a specific weight. The TXC310R and XR600R fork spring rate recommendations for me where very high. The shops I used installed lower spring rates and different valving with good results.

This is the main reason I have not bought the Racetech ST fork kit. I reckon I would need to have the forks apart multiple times before I was happy as there is no external adjustment.

There are a number of companies that make replacement fork cartridge kits including Progressive. Only Traxxion (USA) claim to do one for the ST but it requires some mods and is done in-house..
 
I am going to spend some time at the wreckers to see if I can pick up a spare ST cartridge to play with.

Regards
          Garry
Title: Re: Melbourne Suspension Revalve
Post by: Garry_Coates on December 10, 2014, 06:33:35 PM
 Correction: When I was referring to the LHS ABS fork I meant the LHS Anti-dive fork.
Title: Re: Melbourne Suspension Revalve
Post by: Piet on December 11, 2014, 07:34:41 PM
Garry,

Thanks for the link to Traxxion.  I have made contact and its seems pretty awesome, at the same time very expensive.
The AK20's with new fork caps for full adjustability of preload, rebound and compression is U$1299.95 plus freight (and duty on arrival because of the dollar value breaching the duty free threshold).  I have asked some questions in the hope of finding out more.  They also highly recommend the Penske 8987 triple adjustable rear shock at U$1225.00.

I won't be able to afford this prior to next pay day.  :'(  Its probably worth more than the bike, not quite ... as the bike is worth more to me than the street value.  Still its a ton of moolah.  :o
Title: Re: Melbourne Suspension Revalve
Post by: Garry_Coates on December 11, 2014, 08:52:52 PM
Hi Piet,
         that is great news. Do Traxxion ship a completed product that we can install?  Previously you had to send them the forks and they do it in-house. Refer website.

Alternatively maybe they have links with a suspension shop now in Australia.

I am very interested in what you find out as I have been monitoring them for 10+ years in hope.

One other left field suggestion is to use the fork internals from a VTR1000 as they have 41mm cartridge forks but only 107 mm travel. They have a number of cartridge kits available.

Regards
           Garry
Title: Re: Melbourne Suspension Revalve
Post by: Piet on December 11, 2014, 09:01:38 PM
Hi Garry,  I have asked some questions and will let you know the results as soon as to hand.
Piet.
Title: Re: Melbourne Suspension Revalve
Post by: Garry_Coates on December 12, 2014, 07:11:25 AM
More info: Bikes with 41 mm forks are listed below. I got this from another site some time ago and cannot remember where. Somewhere in this list is possibly a good match for fork internals: 150mm travel , cartridge, external adjustment, work in ST showa fork. Probably late 90s onwards.

41 Honda CR-250R (81)
41 Honda XR-250L (91-96)
41 Honda XR-250R (86-89)
41 Honda XR-250R (90-04)
41 Honda XR-350R (83)
41 Honda XR-350R (84)
41 Honda XR-350R (85)
41 Honda CB-400F (89-90)
41 Honda CR-450R (81)
41 Honda CBR-600F2 (91-94)
41 Honda CBR-600SE (98)
41 Honda XL-600V "Transalp" (89-90)
41 Honda NT-650 "Hawk GT" (89-91)
41 Honda NX-650 (88-89)
41 Honda CB-750 "Nighthawk" (91-03)
41 Honda RVF-720R (94)
41 Honda VF-750C "Magna" (94-03)
41 Honda VF-750C2 "Magna Deluxe" (97-00)  Front Suspension: 41mm cartridge fork; 150mm travel
41 Honda VFR-750F (90-97)
41 Honda VT-750CDA/B/C/D "Shadow American Classic Ed. Deluxe" (03)
41 Honda VT-750DC (01-03)
41 Honda PC-800 (89-90, 94-98)
41 Honda CBR-1000F "Hurricane" (87-91, 93-96)
41 Honda VF-1000F "Interceptor" (84)
41 Honda VTR-1000F "Super Hawk" (98-04)
41 Honda ST-1100 (91-02)
41 Honda VF-1100C "V65 Magna" (83-86)
41 Honda VT-1100C "Shadow 1100" (85-90, 92-96)
41 Honda VT-1100C2 (95-99)/ C2-2 (97) "Shadow 1100 American Classic Ed."
41 Honda VT-1100C3 "Shadow Aero" (98-02)
41 Honda VT-1100D2 "Shadow 1100 American Classic Ed." (99)
41 Honda VT-1100T "Shadow 1100 American Classic Ed. Tourer" (98-00)
41 Honda GL-1200 "Goldwing" (84)
41 Honda GL-1200 I "Interstate" (84-87)
41 Honda GL-1200L "Ltd" (85)
41 Honda VTX-1300C (04)
41 Honda GL-1500 "Goldwing" (88-90)
41 Honda GL-1500I "Interstate" (91-96)
41 Kawasaki KX-125 B1 (82)
41 Kawasaki KX-125 H1 (90)
41 Kawasaki KDX-200E5-E6 (93-94)
41 Kawasaki KX-250H1 (90)
41 Kawasaki KXT-250B1 (86)
41 Kawasaki EN-500C1-C8 "Vulcan 500 Ltd" (96-03)
41 Kawasaki EN-500C9 "Vulcan 500 Ltd" (04)
41 Kawasaki KX-500 E2 (90)
41 Kawasaki ZX-600D1-D4 "Ninja (ZX-6)" (90-93)
41 Kawasaki ZX-600E1-E12 "Ninja (ZX-6)" (93-04)
41 Kawasaki ZX-600F1-F3 "Ninja (ZX-6R)" (95-97)
41 Kawasaki ZR-750C1-C3 (91-93)
41 Kawasaki ZR-750F2 (00)
41 Kawasaki ZX-750K1/K2 "Ninja (ZX-7R)" (91-92)
41 Kawasaki ZX-750L2-L3 "Ninja (ZX-7)" (94-95)
41 Kawasaki VN-800 A1-A10 "Vulcan" (95-04)
41 Kawasaki VN-800 B1-B9 "Vulcan Classic" (96-04)
41 Kawasaki VN-800 C1-C2 "Vulcan Drifter" (99-00)
41 Kawasaki ZX-900B1-B4 "Ninja (ZX-9R)" (94-97)
41 Kawasaki ZG-1000A1-A13 "Concours" (86-98)
41 Kawasaki ZG-1000A14-A19 (99-04)
41 Kawasaki ZR-1000A1/A2 (03-04)
41 Kawasaki ZX-1000B1-B3 "Ninja (ZX-10)" (88-90)
41 Kawasaki ZX-1100E1-E3 "GPz 1100" (95-97)
41 Kawasaki ZG-1200A1/B1-B17 "Voyager XII" (86-03)
41 Kawasaki KZ-1300A1-A4 (79-82)
41 Kawasaki ZN-1300A1-A6 "Voyager" (83-88)
41 Kawasaki VN-1500A1-A5 "Vulcan 88/Vulcan 1500"(87-91), VN-1500 B1-B4"Vulcan 88 SE" (87-90)
41 Kawasaki VN-1500A6-A13 (92-99)
41 Kawasaki VN-1500 D1-D2 "Vulcan 1500 Classic" (96-97)
41 Kawasaki VN-1500 E1-E7 "Vulcan 1500 Classic" (98-04)
41 Kawasaki VN-1500 G1/G1A/G2 "Vulcan 1500 Nomad" (99-00)
41 Kawasaki VN-1500J1-J2 "Vulcan 1500 Drifter" (99-00)
41 Kawasaki VN-1500 L1-L5 "Vulcan 1500 Nomad Fi" (00-04)
41 Kawasaki VN-1500N1-N3 "Vulcan 1500 Classic Fi" (00-02)
41 Kawasaki VN-1500R1-R4 "Vulcan 1500 Drifter" (01-04)
41 Suzuki RM-125 L (90)
41 Suzuki RM-125 L (90)
41 Suzuki RM-250 K/L (89-90)
41 Suzuki RM-250 K/L (89-90)
41 Suzuki RMX-250 K/L (89-90)
41 Suzuki RMX-250 K/L (89-90)
41 Suzuki AN-400 K3/K4 (03-04)
41 Suzuki GSF-400 M/N/P "Bandit" (91-93)
41 Suzuki GSF-600 ST/SV/SW "Bandit" (96-98)
41 Suzuki GSF-600 ST/SV/SW "Bandit" (96-98)
41 Suzuki GSF-600 SX//SY/SK1/SK2/SK3 "Bandit" (99-03)
41 Suzuki GSX-600 FJ "Katana" (88)
41 Suzuki GSX-600 FK/FL/FM "Katana" (89-91)
41 Suzuki GSX-600F N/P/R/S/T/V/W/X/Y/K1/K2/K3/K4 "Katana" (92-04)
41 Suzuki GSX-R600 WN/WP (92-93)
41 Suzuki AN-650 K3-K4 (03-04)
41 Suzuki SV-650 SX/SY/SK1/SK2 (99-02)
41 Suzuki SV-650 S K3-K4 (03-04)
41 Suzuki GSX-750 FK/FL/FM (89-91)
41 Suzuki GSX-750F N/P/R/S/T/V/W/X/Y/K1/K2/K3/K4 "Katana" (92-04)
41 Suzuki GSX-R750 G/H (86-87)
41 Suzuki GSX-R750 M/N (91-92)
41 Suzuki VL-800 K1-K4 "Intruder Volusia" (01-04)
41 Suzuki VX-800 L/M/N/P (90-93)
41 Suzuki VZ-800 V/W/X/Y/K1/K2/K3/K4 "Marauder" (97-04)
41 Suzuki VZ-800 V/W/X/Y/K1/K2/K3/K4 "Marauder" (97-04)
41 Suzuki GS-1100 GKZ/GK2/ GKD/GKE (82-84)
41 Suzuki GSX-1100 FJ "Katana" (88)
41 Suzuki GSX-1100 FK/FL/FM/FN/FP "Katana" (89-93)
41 Suzuki GSX-R1100 G/H/J (86-88)
41 Suzuki GSX-R1100 M/N (90-91)
41 Suzuki GSX-R1100WP/WR (93-94)
41 Suzuki GSX-R1100WP/WR (93-94)
41 Suzuki GV-1200 GLF/GLF2/GLG "Madura" (85-86)
41 Suzuki GV-1400 (85-89)
41 Suzuki VS-1400GLP H/J (87-88)
41 Suzuki VS-1400GLP L/M (90-91)
41 Suzuki VS-1400GLP N/P/R/S/T/V/W/X/Y/K1/K2/K3/K4 "Intruder" (92-04)
41 Suzuki VL-1500 W/X/Y/K1/K2/K3 (98-03)
41 Yamaha YZ-125 W (89)
41 Yamaha YZ-125 W (89)
41 Yamaha YZ-125 A (90)
41 Yamaha YZ-125 A (90)
41 Yamaha WR-200 RD (92)
41 Yamaha WR-200 RD (92)
41 Yamaha YZ-250W/WRW (89)
41 Yamaha YZ-250W/WRW (89)
41 Yamaha YZ-250A/WRA (90)
41 Yamaha YZ-250A/WRA (90)
41 Yamaha YZ-250 WRN (89)
41 Yamaha YZ-250 WRN (89)
41 Yamaha YZ-250 WRW/WRA (89-90)
41 Yamaha YZ-250 WRW/WRA (89-90)
41 Yamaha XT-600 L/LC/N/NC/S/SC/T/TC/U/UC (84-88)
41 Yamaha XT-600 W/WC/EA/EAC/EB/EBC (89-91)
41 Yamaha XT-600 ED/EDC/EE/EEC/EF/EFC/EG/EGC (92-95)
41 Yamaha YZF-600 RG (94-95)
41 Yamaha YZF-600 RG (94-95)
41 Yamaha YZF-600 RJ/RJC (97)
41 Yamaha YZF-600 RJ/RJC (97)
41 Yamaha YZF-600 RK/RKC/RL (98-99)
41 Yamaha XVS-650 AK/AKC/AL/ALC/AM/AMC/AN/ANC/A/AP/APC/AR/ARC (98-03)
41 Yamaha XVS-650 N/NCP/PC/R/RC (01-03)
41 Yamaha XVS-650 ATR/ATRC (03)
41 Yamaha XVS-65 AS (04) "Star Classic"
41 Yamaha XVS-65 S (04) "Star Custom"
41 Yamaha FZR-750RT/RU (87-88)
41 Yamaha FZR-750RT/RU (87-88)
41 Yamaha YZF-750 RF/RFC (94)
41 Yamaha YZF-750 RF/RFC (94)
41 Yamaha YZF-750 RH/RHC/RJ/RJC/RK/RKC (96-98)
41 Yamaha YZF-750 RH/RHC/RJ/RJC/RK/RKC (96-98)
41 Yamaha TDM-850 D/DC/E/EC (92-93)
41 Yamaha FZR-1000 B/BC/D/DC/E/EC (91-93)
41 Yamaha FZR-1000 B/BC/D/DC/E/EC (91-93)
41 Yamaha FZR-1000 T/TC/U/UC (87-88)
41 Yamaha FZR-1000 T/TC/U/UC (87-88)
41 Yamaha YZF-1000 RK (98)
41 Yamaha FJ-1100 L/LC/N/NC (84-85)
41 Yamaha FJ-1100 L/LC/N/NC (84-85)
41 Yamaha XVS-1100 AM/AMC/AN/ANC/AP/APC (00-02)
41 Yamaha XVS-1100 M/MC/N/NC/P/PC/R/RC (00-03)
41 Yamaha XVS-1100 R/RC/AR/ARC/ATR/ATRC/AWR/AWRC (03)
41 Yamaha XVS-1100 S/SC/AS/ASC/ATS/ATSC (04)
41 Yamaha FJ-1200 AD/ADC/AE/AEC (92-93)
41 Yamaha FJ-1200 AD/ADC/AE/AEC (92-93)
41 Yamaha FJ-1200 S/SC/T/TC/W/WC/A/AC (87-90)
41 Yamaha FJ-1200 S/SC/T/TC/W/WC/A/AC (87-90)
41 Yamaha XV17 PCP/PCPC (02) "Road Star Warrior
Title: Melbourne Suspension Revalve
Post by: Piet on December 12, 2014, 05:43:28 PM
Garry,  They responded and I quote,
"You can install these yourself. Unlike a valving kit, this is a complete fully assembled cartridge, even the preload spacers are cut to the right length.  All the adjustments are at the cap. Preload works like any adjustable fork. We use what is normally the rebound adjuster to adjust compression in the left fork"

So it comes complete with new fork springs .. the works.  Just disassemble the old and install the new.
This is a nice way to go.
Title: Re: Melbourne Suspension Revalve
Post by: Garry_Coates on December 12, 2014, 06:53:11 PM
Hi Piet,
          wow we finally have "plug and play" front suspension for the ST. I assume all will be adjusted to suit your weight and riding etc.

Quote: "We use what is normally the rebound adjuster to adjust compression in the left fork" - Does this mean compression in the LHS and and rebound in the RHS? Nirvana!

Maybe we can do a group buy to get the price down or get one fork leg shipped at a time to keep under the import duty.

Who is up for proper front suspension?

Regards
          Garry
Title: Melbourne Suspension Revalve
Post by: Piet on December 13, 2014, 07:57:57 AM
Garry,   Further investigation has revealed that, normally the ST1100 kit would mean the forks being sent to Traxxion and fitted up in-house, and then returned to the customer.  The web still reflects this.  Obviously for Aussie customers that would be a problem so they send out the kit and what it does require of us is to file 4 notches on a part on the inside of the fork tubes.  It sounds like its going to be relatively easy.
Title: Re: Melbourne Suspension Revalve
Post by: Garry_Coates on December 13, 2014, 11:16:20 AM
Hi Piet,
          thanks for the confirmation.

Did you see my question on the set-up? I am hoping that have separated rebound and compression with external adjusters.

Regards
           Garry
Title: Re: Melbourne Suspension Revalve
Post by: Garry_Coates on December 13, 2014, 12:01:13 PM
There is a good explanation at:

Fork Disassembly/Assembly Axxion AK-20 Cartridges Installed 6th Gen VFR800 link:

http://www.vfrdiscussion.com/forum/index.php/topic/72012-fork-disassemblyassembly-axxion-ak-20-cartridges-installed-6th-gen-vfr800/ (http://www.vfrdiscussion.com/forum/index.php/topic/72012-fork-disassemblyassembly-axxion-ak-20-cartridges-installed-6th-gen-vfr800/) 

Seems like separate rebound fork and compression fork is an option on a number of traxxion installs. Depends on bike?

Regards
         GArry
Title: Re: Melbourne Suspension Revalve
Post by: alans1100 on December 13, 2014, 01:47:31 PM
You might want to look here as well........

http://www.st-owners.com/forums/showthread.php?115635-Traxxion-Suspension-Upgrade-(ST1100) (http://www.st-owners.com/forums/showthread.php?115635-Traxxion-Suspension-Upgrade-(ST1100))
Title: Re: Melbourne Suspension Revalve
Post by: Garry_Coates on December 14, 2014, 06:47:06 PM
Hi Piet,
        if you use a parts finder (eg http://www.partzilla.com/ (http://www.partzilla.com/)) it shows that the ST1100 fork tubes and the oil lock pieces on each side are different part numbers. I think this means quite different setup in each fork and not interchangeable.

Did traxxion mention how they get around this when fitting ak-20 cartridges to both forks?

I believe the oil-lock rings inside the bottom of the forks are what needs to be notched as per the VFR800 link.

Regards
           Garry
Title: Re: Melbourne Suspension Revalve
Post by: Piet on December 17, 2014, 07:04:47 AM
Garry,  sorry for the delay in getting back to you.  Traxxion confirm the following,

Both forks have rebound and compression damping.
Both forks have preload adjustment externally.
Rebound is adjusted externally on the right fork, at the cap.
Compression is adjusted externally on the left fork, at the cap.
 
I asked if the filing was as per the photo on the CBR800 site photo but he forgot to answer that question but I am sure you are correct. 

The more I read the reports from users who have installed the AK-20's the more convinced they have a great product.  Everyone lives them.  Suspension is subjective and change itself can be a bit misleading.  However so many report tangible results, tyre wear patterns returning to how they should wear, no longer squating on accelaration, no longer diving too much on braking.  Increased confidance on bike performance for every single rider who runs the.  For some who are racing, quicker lap times and some of those ... new personal bests for lap times.   Thats impressive. 

Now I really wish I had the cash to try a set because I for one would love to give these a go.
Title: Re: Melbourne Suspension Revalve
Post by: Garry_Coates on December 17, 2014, 07:54:54 PM
Hi Piet,
        it is exactly what have been looking for but I am currently one bike too many for this investment. I would factor in the cost of getting a suspension tuner to instal as they will do a better job and I think it will be around $2000 in total.

Traxxion themselves have a youtube video warning people about self installation with some examples taken from bikes that they have had to fix. The bottom line is that people with no experience with valves and shimstacks are more likely to make a mistake which could be serious.

I am continuing with my investigation and may still end up with some improvements. The biggest bang for buck really is the racetech kit.
1. The emulator seems to give pretty good compression results. Racetech recommend using 15wt oil to improve rebound. Compression can be adjusted to suit.
2. Gold valves in the open cartridge will probably max its potential given the design age. Racetech recommend using 5wt
 
The problem with replacing the ST fork internals with other bike cartridges (eg VTR1000) is that they would also need to be upgraded to work with the ST. I have a sneaking suspicion that while it may start out cheaper you would end up around $2000 by the time multiple trips to the suspension tuner is factored in to get it right.

Regards
          Garry

Title: Re: Melbourne Suspension Revalve
Post by: Piet on December 17, 2014, 09:43:28 PM
I hear what you say and you are right, the Racetech solution might give the best results for the dollars spent.  The thing though that really gets me is that the fork oil weight system is so misleading.  It just does not make sense.  One brand vs another would throw your system out simply because the actual viscosity is so different.  This would also apply to Traxxion but as they tune it and use a given brand and weight then all I have to do is stick to that brand and weight and hopefully it will be good.  Then if Murphy has his way, manufacturing variability is going to kick in hard, and it will be all over the place again. A bit cynical I know.

I have no issues in tackling an AK-20 install.  The price is the big hurdle for me.   Especially now that our Aussie dollar is down the toilet.
Title: Re: Melbourne Suspension Revalve
Post by: Garry_Coates on December 20, 2014, 07:14:47 PM
Some more useful information for early models (<=95):

1. 41 mm Fork tubes for Police and ABS models are 614 mm in length while the standard is 633 mm.

633 mm seems to be what a lot of honda sports bikes use so swapping with them is possible eg CBR600F.

2. Fork spring length for police and ABS models is 474 mm while the standard is 416 mm.
3. 95 model 41 mm fork seems to have the same internals as the 96 43mm fork

So a 95 ABS model has shorter tubes, longer springs and different internals to standard 94 or earlier models!?

4. Just about every Honda conventional showa fork in the the 41/43 mm size can use the same Racetech 20mm compression and rebound valving options. Therefore must be similar.

Lots of fork cartridge options for the  96 and later models with 43 mm forks. Not so much for the 41mm earlier models unless either use cartridges with other adjuster fork caps or modify 43 mm adjuster caps to fit.

Well, I thought it was interesting.

Regards
          Garry
Title: Re: Melbourne Suspension Revalve
Post by: Piet on December 22, 2014, 06:49:55 AM
Garry,  where did you find the info on the lengths of the forks?  I was in touch with a guy in Germany who sells new fork tubes and he said that the left and right sides were different.  This seems unlikely to me.  But who knows.  Thats what made me ask the question.  I need to fix a fork seal soon.  I must have damaged it on install when I did my winter maintenance.  When I do the install I might get a chance to check it.  However knowing where to find info like that is gold sometimes. 
I am saving up for the Traxxion deal.  It sounds just perfect.  To be honest as I am not happy with the Progressive 465 rear I might purchase the Penske rear first.  My front end with Sonic fixed rate springs feel so much better than previous, so the Traxxion might be pushed out a bit.
Title: Re: Melbourne Suspension Revalve
Post by: Garry_Coates on December 23, 2014, 12:52:33 PM
Hi Piet,
       I found it doing some long searches on "Honda ST1100 Fork tube length". I cannot remember the website(s).

I confirmed it by calculating the fork tube volumes for each length and taking a ratio of them (0.96998)
 and comparing it against ratios of:
  a) recommended oil volumes (L&R)
  b) recommended oil levels (L&R)
     
They are close to this ratio.  I do not understand why the recommended oil level is different (13ml) for each side though and anything is possible with the ST as it seems to have a unique front end. 

Remember that the left and right fork tubes are not interchangeable anyway - different part numbers with probably different fittings at the bottom to cater for either cartridge or oil damper oil lock pieces..   

If you are buying fork tubes then I would disassemble and measure to be certain.  If you have a slight fork tube ding then that can be lightly sanded to remove sharp edges.

My main reason for this research is to compare with other bikes with showa forks for likely cartridge use.

Hell, I maybe wrong have a look at what I found at racetech:-

http://racetech.com/download/FORK_TUBE_TNK_RTweb_revised.xls (http://racetech.com/download/FORK_TUBE_TNK_RTweb_revised.xls) 

Only two part numbers shown are for the non-ABS ST1100s 41mm fork (MT3 part numbers) which would suggest that one tube is longer than the other! No reference to ABS part numbers (MY3)?!

I will need to look at this again some other time

Regards
          Garry
Title: Re: Melbourne Suspension Revalve
Post by: Piet on December 23, 2014, 05:01:48 PM
Hi Garry,  When I installed the Sonic springs (not so long back) I can definitely confirm that the fork legs are different.  The RH fork (sitting on the bike) has the cartridge in it and there is a captive piece in the bottom of the fork tube that is not there in the LH tube.  What I did not do was check the lengths.  I wish I had.  Because I still have my original springs I went down stairs half an hour ago and measured the original spring at 470mm, So it had sagged 4 mm from new.  I know for a fact mine is ex police (Qld Police) but was completely returned to original look with the exception of the switches on the handlebars and the forks (not so obvious).

The guy in Germany said the fork lengths were different LH to RH and his dimensions were 633 and 613.  This matches  the spreadsheet you sent from RaceTech.  Thats a great spreadsheet by the way.  Top marks on spotting it and thank you for sending it on.  I have added it to my file of useful info I have been collecting.

I am going to try and fix the leaking fork seals on Thursday-Friday so when I have them apart again I will measure them.  I did not have a proper seal driver first time round and I must have wrecked the seals.  I have that sorted now.  I also ordered some fork gaiters (won't arrive in time) and some new brake pads because they got some fork oil onto the pads.

The Police models do have different part numbers for the forks don't they?  So if its not a case of 613mm for Police and 633mm for std production, then it makes one wonder what the difference is? 

I was hoping to hear back from the guy in Germany but so far no further response.  I will keep in touch.
 
Title: Re: Melbourne Suspension Revalve
Post by: Garry_Coates on December 23, 2014, 07:34:35 PM
Hi Piet,
         I am glad you found the info of use. The best information I have found is using:

1. Racetech spring rate search
2. Racetech gold valve options: http://racetech.com/download/FMGV-ForkGoldValves.xls (http://racetech.com/download/FMGV-ForkGoldValves.xls) 

Using 1 to confirm the details of the fork: showa, conventional, 41 mm gold valve options

And then using 2.  to confirm details of valves: 20mm, compression, rebound  etc make it easy to compare front ends. Just missing fork travel and dimensions.

Just got home from a 800 km ride with an ABS problem I need to diagnose.

Merry Christmas 
Title: Re: Melbourne Suspension Revalve
Post by: Garry_Coates on December 24, 2014, 07:18:26 AM
Piet,
      a good reference for all models is at: http://www.st-1100.com/st1100-parts.html. (http://www.st-1100.com/st1100-parts.html.) Put in your police model and go to the relevant parts fiche. I am betting you find that police model bikes have same suspension parts as ABS bikes of that year.

Regards
         Garry 
Title: Re: Melbourne Suspension Revalve
Post by: Garry_Coates on January 29, 2015, 09:36:23 AM
Hi All,
      I have been doing further research on using existing showa fork cartridges. The best two options are VTR1000f and CBR600f3 as the both have 41mm fork caps and 8mm cartridge bolts. I have dispensed with other brands as Honda has by far the best part searches and available information.

I am concentrating on the VTR as the F3 has been used by just about everybody in fork conversions. Certainly none in Australia I get get for the right price.

One point of concern is the VTR has much shorter fork springs (310mm) than the ST ABS version (470mm) which I am investigating. This leads me to my questions.

Does anybody have an ST1100 1995 or later fork cartridge accessible they can measure?

I would like to confirm the cartridge length and maximum travel of the piston.

Please note that the 1995 ABS model has the same spring as earlier ABS models but different cartridge so not sure what the difference is.

Regards
         Garry

ps: I have already bought VTR cartridges from eBay so I can measure them directly
Title: Re: Melbourne Suspension Revalve
Post by: Garry_Coates on March 20, 2015, 11:08:12 PM
I have just got back from my first ride with the VTR fork internals fitted to ST which has been successful. I ended taking them to Krooz Tune in Melbourne as I could see it was not a simple installation. David there has done a number damper rod to fork cartridge conversions for a variety of bikes.

He had to make a fitting for the LHS fork tube to work with the VTR rebound spring and other internal changes to fit them. All up about three hours work to revalve the VTR cartidges and fit them to the ST. He used my existing WP springs and retained 146mm of fork travel which easily enough (120mm was my minimum requirement).

Open cartridge forks get air trapped in them when you bring them home in the car on their sides. I need to do a little more riding before making any tuning changes. Then I will refit the handlebar cover which still fits with the VTR fork caps.

Regards
          Garry
Title: Re: Melbourne Suspension Revalve
Post by: Piet on March 23, 2015, 01:07:49 PM
Hi Garry,

Looking forward to hearing how you went.
Obviously the external hardware like brake calipers and guard still fit as per original. 

So is it now a case where one side has adjustable compression and the other rebound?  It sounds like both fork tubes are now identical unlike the original ST11.

Regards,  Piet.
Title: Re: Melbourne Suspension Revalve
Post by: Garry_Coates on March 23, 2015, 07:43:36 PM
Hi Piet,
       I just used the VTR fork internals not the external bits. Both sides are the same with only pre-load and rebound externally adjustable. But from experience changing rebound on Saturday also changes compression probably 80/20 or 70/30. Forks where re-valved to suit ST and run 5wt oil. TRAC left in place but does not affect the cartridges.

I discussed the rebound adjustable one side / compression the other with David. While it can be done he did not recommend it as it compromises the cartridge dampening to some degree.

From my experience if compression and rebound a close to right the external adjustment will probably be sufficient. Worse case is go to slightly heavier oil for compression and adjust rebound to compensate.

This will do me. If I am prepared to spend $2k on suspension I would graft late model USD forks and wheel from a CBR.

One consequence of not using TRAC is a much better feel when hard braking.

Regards
          Garry
Title: Re: Melbourne Suspension Revalve
Post by: Garry_Coates on May 31, 2015, 11:11:01 AM
It has taken me a while to get 2000 kms ups with an injured knee from trail bike riding. I have settled on the external adjustment settings and all is good.

It is funny how quickly you adjust to improvements and factor that in while cornering. I have to remind myself of what it was like before getting both front and rear suspension done. Not bad for less than $750 parts and labour.

Regards
           Garry
Title: Re: Melbourne Suspension Revalve
Post by: Garry_Coates on July 29, 2020, 08:47:53 PM
With 183,000km up on the ST it is time to have the suspension freshened up. The nitron rear shock (108,000 km) has been completely rebuilt with a 500lb spring and modified dampening. That now makes both ends > 50% higher spring rates than stock. I would love to talk to the original designer of the ST about this as the oem springs barely carry the bike without a rider. It is always surprising how much the rear suspenion affects the front. This time for good as there is less fore/aft movement and better tyre feel.

I am now reviewing options for the front. It is either a purpose built kit or just freshen up the VTR1000F cartridges previously installed.

I would love to hear of any relevant changes done by others.

Regards
           Garry
Title: Re: Melbourne Suspension Revalve
Post by: Garry_Coates on August 16, 2020, 03:23:52 PM
A quick update on front fork options:
1. Nitron and Matris have cartridge kits that will work for 41mm forks but will take some customising. This is in addition to the Traxxion AK-20s already discussed.
2. Nitron 22mm cartridge kit seems to be the better option as there seems to be interest here and the valving looks good. I have not found anybody here interested in customising Matris for the ST.
3. The steps for nitron
    a. Take your forks to a nitron certified suspension tuner
    b. They will strip the forks and consult with Nitron
    c. Nitron will send the custom kit to the suspension tuner for installation (2+weeks)
    d. Pay the tuner approx $1800 and collect the forks
    e. Install them and fine tune adjustments

I am pretty much happy with the Nitron steps except for 3d. It is hard to justify for a bike with 183,000 km. I will probably then persevere with the VTR cartridges. 

Regards
         Garry
 
Title: Re: Melbourne Suspension Revalve
Post by: Garry_Coates on August 19, 2020, 04:26:49 PM
Just noticed  on ebay "ANDREANI FORK HYDRAULIC CARTRIDGE HONDA CBR 600 F 1991 94 FORK Showa 41". This would fit the ST1100 up to 1995 plus police models for about $900 landed in Australia. Would have to work out changes required. I noticed no external rebound springs though which probably means derived from racing. Maybe within the cartridge.

Regards
          Garry
Title: Re: Melbourne Suspension Revalve
Post by: Garry_Coates on December 20, 2020, 03:21:39 PM
Update:

I ended just refurbishing the existing ST1100 fork and VTR1000 cartridge setup and using the same 5wt oil. To get a little softer compression:
1. Removed 3mm preload
2. Increased air gap from 170 to 185mm

Fork travel now increased from 115mm to 133m. Low speed compression still a little too strong but the rest is fine.

Regards
          Garry