OzSTOC
General Category => General Discussion => Topic started by: Sabie on July 19, 2015, 12:52:48 AM
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Just a couple of question
Is OzSTOC now an official supporter of far rides and Iron butt rides and/or similar Events?
I've seen photos of our flag flying at these events as well as now these events have there own section on the forum promoting such type of riding in contradiction to national road safety policy.
Can I also ask where would OzSTOC s official position and lliability be if a member participated and unfortunately either was killed or whos actions killed other motorists or people. What I'm alluding to is if it was determined that fatigue was the cause by the member participating in the event. What liability is there toward the Club if someone or police decided to sue or prosecute the club.
can someone just answer the questions without any abuse or threats.
I would imagine the club does not have public liability insurance.
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Just a couple of question
Is OzSTOC now an official supporter of far rides and Iron butt rides and/or similar Events?
No, I don't think they are supporting any long Distance riding but that doesn't prevent advising that these rides are happening.
I've seen photos of our flag flying at these events as well as now these events have there own section on the forum promoting such type of riding in contradiction to national road safety policy.
I guess with the flag those people have chosen to piggyback an RTE with another ride as there are quite a few members of various groups in our club and as usual most of us ride our own ride/route to any given RTE.
Can I also ask where would OzSTOC s official position and lliability be if a member participated and unfortunately either was killed or whos actions killed other motorists or people. What I'm alluding to is if it was determined that fatigue was the cause by the member participating in the event. What liability is there toward the Club if someone or police decided to sue or prosecute the club.
As mentioned above we all ride our own ride and it's not really classified as a club event until we reach the destination at which point we are on private property not a public road. Though some choose to ride together before or after then it's no different to any other ride you might do.
can someone just answer the questions without any abuse or threats.
I only offered what I see as common sense approach; others might have a different view.
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I have yet to undertake my first official LD (FarRide) ride but over the years I have done in excess of 1000 km days for three or four days in a row (Port Hedland to Adelaide 4000kms) and then reverse the trip back to work a week later.
For my first official ride I'll be leaving home about 12:30 pm and aiming for Ceduna (600kms from home) which should take us about 7 hours. On the following morning we ride the final 480 Km to the WA Border (about 5 hours) We'll stay a few hours and meet some of the WA club members and then do the 480 Km back to Ceduna for the night and another 600 km hike back home the next day. That's how I'm doing and as usual others will be different but in the end; no one is holding a gun to anyone's head to do any of these rides and anyone can pull out at anytime if things go wrong.
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Do you think a court would see it that way Alan? Club flag flying, Web support from this organisation, executive encouraging Participation?
think of it from a legal perspective not a personal outlook,. I can see your trying to water it down but you can't just ignore certain action because you choose to and then that makes it ok.
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It is a very good question actually, and one that i took to my daughters cricket coach who is a solicitor who deals in public liability and the like last year when my local riding group was getting into it.
His answer after looking into it was no there is no liability for us, the events are organised by a seperate group i.e. FarRides/DRA, the way each person organizes their way of completing said event is organised themselves.
The IBA OzSTOC event we did could fall into it, but we all did sign wavers to participate.
In the event that someone did try to sue or something as OzSTOC is not an officially registered "club" they would have to actually sue the organizer/owner of the name, so technically say i purchased the website domain names, i guess you would have to attempt the litigation on me.
That's my advice and understanding :thumb
Hope this helps
Cheers
Streak
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Thanks Streak!
I look at it like a bottle shop. Just because they sell bulk beer, does not mean you have to buy it and/or consume it.
All the LD Websites I have seen have clearly warmed of the dangers of fatigue and provide guidance on recognising it and how to manage it.
I have done both an IBA and FarRide. On each ride I had planned for the contingency of pulling out if I felt or identified the symptoms of fatigue.
This group although known as a club, is not incorporated and does not have a registered club structure. In reality it is a loose afilliation of like minded individuals. As such it would be hard to sue. A bit like herding cats.
No one is encouraging people to participate in LD riding. If someone doesn't like LD riding, I suggest they don't do a LD ride.
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Thanks Srteak!
I look at like a bottle shop. Just because they sell bulk beer, does not mean you have to buy it and/or consume it.
All the LD Websites I have seen have clearly warmed of the dangers of fatigue and provide guidance on recognising it and how to manage it.
I have done both an IBA and FarRide. On each ride I had planned for the contingency of pulling out if I felt or identified the symptoms of fatigue.
This group although known as a club, is not incorporated and does not have a registered club structure. In reality it is a loose affikiayion of like minded individuals. As such it would be hard to sue. A bit like herding cats.
No one is encouraging people to participate in LD riding. If someone doesn't like LD riding, I suggest they don't do a LD ride.
Thanks mate, the question that was asked was could we be liable, just glad i could answer :thumb
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:thumb
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Just a couple of question
Is OzSTOC now an official supporter of far rides and Iron butt rides and/or similar Events?
I've seen photos of our flag flying at these events as well as now these events have there own section on the forum promoting such type of riding in contradiction to national road safety policy.
Can I also ask where would OzSTOC s official position and lliability be if a member participated and unfortunately either was killed or whos actions killed other motorists or people. What I'm alluding to is if it was determined that fatigue was the cause by the member participating in the event. What liability is there toward the Club if someone or police decided to sue or prosecute the club.
can someone just answer the questions without any abuse or threats.
I would imagine the club does not have public liability insurance.
Thanks for your question Sabie, it's a fair one :like
Is OzSTOC now a "official" supporter of FarRides and Ironbutt rides or similar events ??......simple answer NO! because OzSTOC doesn't make or implement the rules that these riders are requested to adhere to by these LD riding groups.
But we support members of OzSTOC choosing to undertake any form of motorcycle related activities conducted in a legal manner that doesn't bring our group into disrepute.
In regards to our club flag being used occasionally in group photo's at other clubs events.....personally I'm not in favour of it, but accept it as fact, providing it is undertaken in a discrete manner so as not to "steel the thunder" of the group who has organised the event.
OzSTOC has had the Long Distance riding thread in existence for a few years now, its not a new topic..... OzSTOC is and will remain member focused and member driven, we think it pertinent to give sub-sections to keep topics focused and accessible to those who are interested in that topic.....you will note the recent addition of "Event Marshalling" under the same section as the LD riding. This was added as we have members who wish to follow and discuss this particular topic.
Streak has address your second question so I wont muddy the waters..... :thumb
And no we don't have a public liability insurance policy....as we have all previously discussed, we are not a registered club. We do not have elected office bearers, a constitution, or financial affiliation with any other motorcycle riding body and we don't have compulsory annual subscriptions for membership.....what we do have is a fantastic group of like minded motorcycle owners whom participate in an on line forum and enjoy each others company at National Rallies and local RTE's if they choose too attend.
The sub-sections of our forum are like flavours of Ice cream......There's 21 different flavours and you eat what you enjoy, and as my waistline can attest....I love them all WOW:
:beer
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The OzSTOC rides, be they an RTE or a Far Ride type event, are similar to the Ulysses weekend rides.
The ride that some one posts on the forum, is to let others know so that they can join in if they wish. All folk going on the ride know the road rules, and are responsible for their own action at all times.
If OzSTOC was to say that there is an event, and that all members are to attend, then there would be a liability concernes.
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I've seen photos of our flag flying at these events as well as now these events have there own section on the forum promoting such type of riding in contradiction to national road safety policy.
I do not agree with you Sabie.
Can I also ask where would OzSTOC s official position and lliability be if a member participated and unfortunately either was killed or whos actions killed other motorists or people. What I'm alluding to is if it was determined that fatigue was the cause by the member participating in the event. What liability is there toward the Club if someone or police decided to sue or prosecute the club.
This is a great question and obviously opens up countless opportunities for issues for any club or organised group related to motorcycle riding (and a number of other events not including motorcycle riding). For instance, when you, Sabie, were riding to attend the National Meet earlier this year, should you have had an accident could OzSTOC have been held liable for you, should it have been shown that your accident was a result of your fatigue? This , if course, could also relate to RTE's as well and of course that big ride to WA for the next National Meet
I may also add that it is not just LDRiders that may be affected by fatigue, any rider or driver is affected, no matter what distance they are travelling, it is about what you as a rider/driver is doing to monitor and control your situation. We have spoken in some great detail about fatigue management in previous posts, so I will not add further but suggest that others who have not researched the matter do so.
I like the way in which this group looks after all matter of interest to its members, it shows a responsible manner for many interests and I commend our management group in the way the go about this part of the club
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The issue of public liability was raised in the lead up to Middleton National Rally. You may recall that our group photo was taken on the grounds of the local golf club, and in a meeting I had with the business manager to seek permission to use the location, he asked about OzSTOC's public liability insurance. I explained OzSTOC's structure, events, no fee or membership requirement, and that events are open to anyone to attend, and he agreed that any liability is carried by the individuals and not by the club.
In regard to LD riding, OzSTOC and showing of the OzSTOC flag or shirts, I see it to be no different to me wearing and displaying a shirt for a membership to Trees for Life, my local Church, or any other organization. Information is provided via our forum, and rides are planned and undertaken by individuals, under the rules established by FarRiders or the Iron Butt Association. I carry my own comprehensive motor vehicle insurance.
Liability would be no different for incidents that may occur on a LD ride, to anything that may occur on a RTE or Nat Rally event.
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Do you think a court would see it that way Alan? Club flag flying, Web support from this organisation, executive encouraging Participation?
think of it from a legal perspective not a personal outlook,. I can see your trying to water it down but you can't just ignore certain action because you choose to and then that makes it ok.
Mate, I don't see Alan's comments as watering it down, just his opinions and his interpretation, not unlike yours or mine. Cheers.
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The flag flying, shirts, stickers on bike, all just say we were there. You will also find Ulysses shirts, flags, stickers as well as those from other groups.
OzSTOC isnt a supporter as such, but has members in attendance.
promoting such type of riding in contradiction to national road safety policy.
No, OzSTOC promotes safe riding. Nothing about the long distance events encourages illegal activity, in fact the distance over time usually equates to an average speed of 80 Ks/Hr. This means that there is plenty of time to ride rest and eat. As with any travelling, it up to the driver recognise when they need to take a break.
In my younger days, I have driven from Perth to Sydney in 52 Hrs. I cant do those things any more.
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Thanks Streak, all I asked was my question to be answered. To the others who want to tell me I'm wrong or they don't agree with me, I didn't ask that.
Streak was the only one that actually answered the question, the rest just want to take a piece out of me for not following their convention.
Terribly sad
Thanks again Streak
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Brock, shame on you .. I didn't say illegal I said policy.....trying to turn my words around.
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My apologies.
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I read this twice to be sure I wasn't missing something after reading through the first time. I think everyone's contribution made good sense to me and contrbuted to answering the few questions asked. Well done all :thumbsup
Pockey :wink1
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Thanks Streak, all I asked was my question to be answered. To the others who want to tell me I'm wrong or they don't agree with me, I didn't ask that.
Streak was the only one that actually answered the question, the rest just want to take a piece out of me for not following their convention.
Terribly sad
Thanks again Streak
Sabie old mate, You certainly did ask a question, actually more than one and in doing so made some statements, which are your personal opinion and of course, this forum allows for people to do just what you did, as long as we follow the guidelines put in place under our forum rules. I see nothing above from anyone that would suggest that "the rest just want to take a piece out of me for not following their convention". Just the opposite has happened, responses have been clear and presented well.
Unfortunately and I am sure that you are aware, that not everyone will agree with what we may present as an issue for general discussion nor some specific statements we may make. If we are prepared to make these statements or comments on a public forum then surely we must understand that there may be people out there that will respond with their opinions or disagree, that is also their right on this forum as long as the guidelines mentioned above are followed.
cheers
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I'm more interested in the motivation to ask the question ....
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Thanks Streak, all I asked was my question to be answered. To the others who want to tell me I'm wrong or they don't agree with me, I didn't ask that.
Streak was the only one that actually answered the question, the rest just want to take a piece out of me for not following their convention.
Terribly sad
Thanks again Streak
Sabie old mate, You certainly did ask a question, actually more than one and in doing so made some statements, which are your personal opinion and of course, this forum allows for people to do just what you did, as long as we follow the guidelines put in place under our forum rules. I see nothing above from anyone that would suggest that "the rest just want to take a piece out of me for not following their convention". Just the opposite has happened, responses have been clear and presented well.
Unfortunately and I am sure that you are aware, that not everyone will agree with what we may present as an issue for general discussion nor some specific statements we may make. If we are prepared to make these statements or comments on a public forum then surely we must understand that there may be people out there that will respond with their opinions or disagree, that is also their right on this forum as long as the guidelines mentioned above are followed.
cheers
Thanks.....said better than I could.
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I'm more interested in the motivation to ask the question ....
I think the motivation is quite clear (IMHO).
Saabie has the club and its members at heart and does not want to see the club or its office bearers get into legal or financial trouble.
Good motivation and good question.
The second part where one assumes that people disagreeing is a personal attack .... not good.
Arguments for and against are all part of discussion and working out what is actually what and when one question is asked it woill often open more questions.
What I saw were responses that were provided because more doors were opened than just the one originally.
So far I think all the responses pertaining to LD riding , litigation austrialan fatigue issues etc have all been valid.
Personally I have discovered a safe and supportive and educational environment for LD riding. I have previously done a LOT of LD riding but had no support as I thought it was just something I did.
As far as the Club supporting it. I would rather see a safe environment in support of this sport where safety is the primary agenda and fininshing in the time allowed a distant secondary goal.
As far as flying the flag. Where v=ever and when ever a number of Ozstocers gather in almost any event then I see no reason to not fly the flag ..... taking into consideration the reason for the original meeting and not overshadow that event.
for example.... we had a FarRide event finishing at Eungella the other month. It just so happened that there were at least 50% of the participants who were OzSToc members.
we had the Far Ride photo opportunity followed by a smaller and quite separate photo op for the OzSToc riders.
we were there, we had a flag, we thought what a wonderful opportunity to have so many here and what a damn nice view.
I would like to reiterate that I am fully in favour of those who hold this club dear to ask the hard questions so in that issue thank you Saabie.
Cheers all.
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Well said Spanner
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++
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I'm more interested in the motivation to ask the question ....
I think the motivation is quite clear (IMHO).
Saabie has the club and its members at heart and does not want to see the club or its office bearers get into legal or financial trouble.
Good motivation and good question.
The second part where one assumes that people disagreeing is a personal attack .... not good.
Arguments for and against are all part of discussion and working out what is actually what and when one question is asked it woill often open more questions.
What I saw were responses that were provided because more doors were opened than just the one originally.
So far I think all the responses pertaining to LD riding , litigation austrialan fatigue issues etc have all been valid.
Personally I have discovered a safe and supportive and educational environment for LD riding. I have previously done a LOT of LD riding but had no support as I thought it was just something I did.
As far as the Club supporting it. I would rather see a safe environment in support of this sport where safety is the primary agenda and fininshing in the time allowed a distant secondary goal.
As far as flying the flag. Where v=ever and when ever a number of Ozstocers gather in almost any event then I see no reason to not fly the flag ..... taking into consideration the reason for the original meeting and not overshadow that event.
for example.... we had a FarRide event finishing at Eungella the other month. It just so happened that there were at least 50% of the participants who were OzSToc members.
we had the Far Ride photo opportunity followed by a smaller and quite separate photo op for the OzSToc riders.
we were there, we had a flag, we thought what a wonderful opportunity to have so many here and what a damn nice view.
I would like to reiterate that I am fully in favour of those who hold this club dear to ask the hard questions so in that issue thank you Saabie.
Cheers all.
Well said Spanner.
I agree with the flying of the Ozstoc flag. I took photos at the recent FRN#2 with the Ozstoc NT flag. There were 2/3 of the NT members present, along with a non-Ozstoc ST owner, so I saw this as a photo opportunity. I also regularly take photos of the Ozstoc NT flag when riding with NT Women Motorcycle riders for the same reason, I fully believe in promoting our awesome club at any opportunity.
Wendy
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I'm still trying to work out what a "timetrqmes" is, that's written in the "Subject" title :crackup
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I'm still trying to work out what a "timetrqmes" is, that's written in the "Subject" title :crackup
It's what a Tardis is for.
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Thanks Gatey for those kind words, love and kisses to you too..
Oh no its been deleted Gatey, oh well must have been misspelt huh...
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I'm more interested in the motivation to ask the question ....
I think the motivation is quite clear (IMHO).
Saabie has the club and its members at heart and does not want to see the club or its office bearers get into legal or financial trouble.
Very, very clever Spanner, I see what you did there ;-*
It looks like it, feels like it, smells like it and there's a history of it.... must be something else! :-++
I'm with ST2UP re the flag. If we didn't organise it, leave the flag in the bag. That aside though, proposing that getting it out to take a group photo at any place where Oztocers gather for whatever reason might legally or otherwise constitute anything other than just getting the flag out for a picture... blimey what a stretch! I'd like to see someone try to fly that in a court as "supporting" something. Like playing a Barnsey anthem at a Reclaim Australia Rally!
It's fantastic to see other OzStocers at FarRides, but if one of us does the wrong thing on the way there or the way home who can someone sue? Not Ozstoc, Not FarRiders, they aren't an entity either. Not the IBA, who'd take on legal action in the States? How about any person who was negligent or breaking a law that as a result caused the injury (broad definition here)? They could have the same remedies available to them as one of us if we were injured by someone else when we are riding to a FarRide, OStoc RTE or doing an IBA ride.
On that point, as I understand it "fatigue" offences only relate to trucks. I apologise now for my cynicism (too many years in the cops I guess), but it seems a very unusual thing to "allude" or "question" that if something that is not an offence and might be in some way be determined to have contributed to an event that it might expose a third party or organisation to litigation. Whew, that's a big hypothetical wheelbarrow!
A much more useful, balanced and general question might have been. "If someone going to or from any OzStoc event, or any event where the ozstoc flag was shown, was found to have committed an offence (speeding, neg drive, dangerous riding, manslaughter) and injured someone along the way could OzStoc be liable. We know the answer is "No". But that question doesn't provide the author an opportunity to push a cart that's actually irrelevant when considering the potential liability of Ozstoc in a range of circumstances.
I also trust that our "leaders/facilitators" aren't so bone-headed they'd take up their voluntary positions and leave themselves exposed to litigation. I've met them, they don't seem to be and their responses here certainly back this up.
Now I have a really quick question. Can this post please be taken out of the Long Distance Riding Proper Preparation and Riding Tips area of the forum? It has nothing to do with the topic and does not belong with helpful threads such as "How to tie a swag on", "Group FarRide Advice" and "LD riding in hot weather". I wouldn't stick it with the Off Topic, Off Colour .... stuff" There's already plenty of content in there that might get Streak prosecuted under various laws. :rofl
Maybe it belongs in the General Discussion or the trash but the latter would be a shame, it would mean the last five minutes of my life have been wasted. Although they may have been anyway.
Now I've expressed my opinion here a bit and I've only really asked one question. The rest were rhetorical, so I only want the answer to the last one OK. :whistle
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Maybe it belongs in the General Discussion
Good point.
and it shall be so
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Everyone keeps trying to twist my original question to state that driving or riding while fatigued is an offence or illegal in some way. I never said any such thing, the term I used was policy, that's POLICY, a noun, "a course or principle of action adopted or proposed by an organization or individual".
My point which has been completely missed and most likely chosen to be missed is; as an organisation, and we are an motoring organisation be it a quasi organisation, encourages and supports a practice that goes against State road safety POLICY of which most States, if not all have adopred. By virtue of providing an area of the "clubs" official website where members including those in management positions have commented in a positive way to this style of riding, does promote long distance - short time frame style of riding.
The question is .... As a motoring organisation whether registered or not whether offical or not, support, encourage, promote a riding style that is not in line with identified and set road safety POLICY on our public website.
Be assured, and I highly stress, be assured that my motivation to raise this subject has no alternate or sinister motive. If you want to try to muddy the waters by insinuating that any spelling errors made must mean I'm up to no good or try to twist what I've written to seem as though I'm suggesting illegal activity by the club or its members, what is your motive for doing That?
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Oh Sadie, wrong thread.
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As this thread keeps getting overheated, its now locked.