ADAS is Crap...

[Dragonstaff]

Unless you own a Jeep (from an "owned a Jeep once - never again" person)

There seem to be a lot of us about.

[ruSTynutz]

After Sue & I attended the NatRally at Mannum last year we caught up and spent time with Sue's brother in Adelaide.

At the time he owned a Lexus Hybrid SUV and while he seemed very happy with it, he was considering upgrading to a Mitsubishi Outlander PHEV
as he figured with its 84km battery only range he could travel to work easily and not have to waste money of fuel.
He was also in the process of having solar panels and a battery installed at his home.

Fast forward to early this year and he'd had a change of heart and had bought himself a Tesla...

Well, the love affair with that didn't last long as I heard today that he's had a gutful and is getting rid of it and buying another ICE car...
Apparently there's been some issue with the Tesla braking and slowing down to 60kph on its own accord and for no logical reason while driving at highway speeds...something like that anyhow...

[West Aussie Glen]

A good mate of mine, a retired electronics engineer, just upgraded from his Tesla 3 to a Dual Motor Model Y.
He was happy with the Model 3 and happier with the Y.
He lives in Perth and his sons live Bunbury and Yallingup so he regular does the 530 km return trip. Main reason for upgrading was his wife finds the Y much more comfortable and as the 3 was only the standard range he is enjoying the extra range of the Y .
One of his sons purchased the Model 3 for his wife.
As a side story, the son with the model 3 also has a new top of the range Ford Ranger.
Not by plan but the Model Y and the Ranger ended up side by side at the traffic lights and the ranger is still coming.
The other son has a BYD

[ruSTynutz]

That was one thing I noticed in the time I spent in Perth recently, with the number of Teslas getting around, they seem to have taken over from the "Camry"...lol.

In regard to your friends Teslas, I'm assuming they've had no issues with the ADAS? 

[John g]

 : .  I took my phone in so I could get a replacement  protective cover .it’s about three years old ,I was told the cover is no longer available and would I like to view the latest replacement.I politely declined.A customer of mine had a earlier BMW,I think it was a R1150  the brake assist module became faulty, a new one only available from Germany $3000  !!!!  Nearly worth more than the bike .there are hundreds of stories like these and it’s not going to get any better soon especially for people who don’t have the funds to own a late model vehicle.

.   
             My worry about these new cars is when they get older and a few Kay’s on them the gremlins are going to start invading
             These electronic systems and it’s going to be very expensive to repair.

I remember selling my Nissan Skyline to a lady many years ago. Her husband came with her to look at the car and grumbled about the electronic ignition/electronic fuel injection etc etc, saying that he could fix his old cars himself but could never fix one of these if it goes wrong. His wife ignored him and bought the car anyway.
Yet electronic ignition and fuel injection are 2 very very reliable technologies and cars became far more reliable with them than without. (we all remember cleaning/adjusting points/spark plugs, forever fiddling with carburettors...).
My point is that automotive technologies are generally very robust and diagnostic tools to suit the increasingly complex technologies progress at just a slightly slower pace than the technology does, so although it sounds very difficult to imagine how one might fix something, once you have the tools its not so bad. And once you've identified a faulty module, you replace it unless you also happen to be an electronics enthusiast.

How many people have had their phone repaired at the local phone shop. I'm an electronics enthusiast and I'm always amazed that these guys can pull a phone apart and replace parts like the screen, USB ports, buttons, batteries etc.

[STroppy]

I remember when seat belts were introduced and people complained about having to put them on as it slowed them down. Bloody things are a waste of time!

Mind you with all the safety equipment and sensors in modern day vehicles, we are still managing to kill ourselves at a great rate of knots!

[Bodø]

South Australia has had a disastrous year for deaths on our roads.

[ruSTynutz]

Doesn't surprise me in some ways...
Ever reducing speed limits, advisory signs everywhere & many of these so-called driver aids are just dumbing people down, basically just encouraging drivers to not think for themselves...
And to top it off, millions & millions of dollars are being spend on wire rope barriers while actual maintenance of our roads & especially our rural roads are basically non-existent...

[Langers]

To put things in perspective, in 1970 Australia's road toll was 3,798 or 30.4 persons per 100,000 of population. This was the worst year on record and continually dropped through to 2020 (1,095 or 4.3/100K population). Since then there has been a slight increase such that in 2022 (the last complete year, 1194 deaths or 4.6/100K population). Every death is a tragedy but the figures today are so much better than 50 odd years ago (I understand random breath testing came in around that time).

[Williamson]

To put things in perspective, in 1970 Australia's road toll was 3,798 or 30.4 persons per 100,000 of population. This was the worst year on record and continually dropped through to 2020 (1,095 or 4.3/100K population). Since then there has been a slight increase such that in 2022 (the last complete year, 1194 deaths or 4.6/100K population). Every death is a tragedy but the figures today are so much better than 50 odd years ago (I understand random breath testing came in around that time).

 

Here's a cut 'n' paste from a mid-2021 post in another Forum. 


Having commenced working in road safety and traffic management in mid-76 at RoSTA (Road Safety and Traffic Authority) and progressing through RTA, VicRoads and (until recently) a similar role at Local Government, I feel I can comment from an informed position, rather than make uninformed assumptions.

If we go back to 1969, the then VIC State Government Declared War on 1034. For those of you too young or interstate and not know what that means, it was when VIC had 1,034 road fatalities in a year.

The State Government responded with injecting $M's into road safety (research, programs, infrastructure) and transitioned the Traffic Commission to RoSTA. The start was shakey with 1,061 fatalities in 1970, but quickly got on track as the number of fatalities start dropping, pretty steadily but some occasional slight set backs.

Year Fatalities¹
1969 1034
1970 1061
1971 923
1972 915
1973 935
1974 806
1975 910
1976 938
1977 954
1978 869
1979 846
1980 657
1981 766
1982 709
1983 664
1984 657
1985 683
1986 668
1987 705
1988 701
1989 776
1990 548
1991 503
1992 396
1993 436
1994 378
1995 418
1996 418
1997 377
1998 390
1999 384
2000 407
2001 444
2002 397
2003 330
2004 343
2005 346
2006 337
2007 332
2008 303
2009 290
2010 287
2011 287
2012 282
2013 243
2014 248
2015 252
2016 290
2017 259
2018 213
2019 266
2020 not all data available
2021 hardly any data available

Note 1:  Fatalities, this is the number of people killed in a crash, not the number of fatal crashes, eg. there was an incident in Plenty Road Bundoora in July 2010 in which five were killed, this one incident boosted the figure by five, rather than just one.

Pretty impressive, aye!

These results didn't follow one single initiative, it's just the cumulative result of many through the three "E's" - Engineering, Education and Enforcement.

Engineering - better roads and roadsides (clearing of hazards), roadside hazard protection (guard rail, wire rope barriers), intersections (traffic signals / roundabouts), vehicles & equipment (seat belts, helmets, ABS, airbags, crumple zones, 5 star ratings, etc...).

Education - driver / rider trainer, 0.05 BAC, 0.00 BAC, publicity re. seat belt and helmet wearing, etc ...

Enforcement - speed and red light cameras, BAC enforcement .....

Medical advances, (surgeons' skills, doctors, nurse, ambos and first resonders) fit in here, somewhere and no doubt have a positive impact.

Crikey, how many initiatives have I missed?

If you take into account that VIC's popluation has (approximately) doubled over 50 years, and with corresponding increases in the number of vehilces on the roads and km driven, without these initiatives a reasonable forecast of fatalities for 2019 could have been in the order of 2,100. Another way of looking at could be that an additional 40,000 to 50,000 fatalities may have occured, if not for any of the safety initiatives.

Rather than being cynical and criticising VicPol and VicRoads and looking for excuses to justify many of the poor decisions made when driving or riding, many of you (in this case in VIC, but probably the other State and Territories) could probably just appreciate what former and current Governments and Goverment Departments have done, and accept that some of you, your family and friends are here today because of their good work.

Phew! Time for another blood pressure pill.

Now in Dec 2023, some data on 2021 and 2022 will be available.  I'll see if I still have access to VicRoads' Crashstats, if so, I'll have a root around in there and post an update.

[Williamson]

Not VicRoads', but Transport Accident Commission (TAC) data, just the past 20 years (to provide some perspective).  It seems that Victoria is heading for its highest number of fatalities since 2009, but still less than a few years previous to then.

Year  Fatalities
2003    330
2004    343
2005    346
2006    337
2007    332
2008    303
2009    290
2010    287
2011    287
2012    282
2013    243
2014    248
2015    252
2016    290
2017    259
2018    213
2019    266
2020    211
2021    234
2022    241
2023    295 (data on TAC site only to 27 Dec 23)

Might see if I can find some VIC population data and add a rate / 100,000 of population.  That will provide some better perspective.   Another element that needs to be considered is the distance travelled, but I don't know of any data collected on that matter.

[Williamson]

We seemed to have got off topic, to bring this back (on track) and more relevant to our Forum, what is concerning is the number of motorcyclists killed, eg. here are some screen shots from the TAC site.

1987

9.5% motorcyclist

1997

10.8% motorcyclists

2007

13.6%motorcyclists

2019

16.5% motorcyclists

2020

15.2% motorcyclist

2021

18.4% motorcyclists

2022

23.2% motorcyclists

2023

16.9% motorcyclists

What do all of these stats really mean?  If any anyone really knew, the solution to our overall road toll would be simpler than it seems, but the increase in motorcyclists fatalities is concerning alarming, perhaps that could be explained with motorcycle ownerships rates, number of km being ridden - here's a research project for AC or MUARC (Monash University Accident Research Centre), perhaps the motorcycle levy could be put to good use.

Probably can't be blamed on ARAS (Advanced Rider Assistance Systems), as compared to cars, motorcycles don't have as much of that technology.

 

[ruSTynutz]

Rather than being cynical and criticising VicPol and VicRoads and looking for excuses to justify many of the poor decisions made when driving or riding, many of you (in this case in VIC, but probably the other State and Territories) could probably just appreciate what former and current Governments and Goverment Departments have done, and accept that some of you, your family and friends are here today because of their good work.

When you see the state of our roads, especially in rural areas I'll certainly be critical of the responsible bodies...
It seems they are happy to spend millions and millions on wire rope barriers yet don't have the funds to fix the roads.
VicRoads answer to our crappy roads is to just drop the speed limit instead of doing much needed repairs...and when they finally do any repairs, they are usually sub-par and break up again, sometimes within hours...

Oh, and Michael, go easy on those pills! 

[Williamson]

When you see the state of our roads, especially in rural areas I'll certainly be critical of the responsible bodies...
It seems they are happy to spend millions and millions on wire rope barriers yet don't have the funds to fix the roads.
VicRoads answer to our crappy roads is to just drop the speed limit instead of doing much needed repairs...and when they finally do any repairs, they are usually sub-par and break up again, sometimes within hours...

Oh, and Michael, go easy on those pills! 

They way I see it, I'm sure VicRoads and Regional Roads Victoria would happily put the necessary funds towards road maintenance, if they had it.  It's the State Government that hold the purse strings and redirected $Billions and $Billions of VIC taxpayer funds towards other projects and have us the highest debt of any State Government in the Nation.  The weekly interest repayments (let alone capital) would pay for all of the road maintenance where I "work" and the entire State's road maintenance needs could probably be taken care of within 12 months.

New roads and infrastructure are a State priority, there's plenty of photo opportunities with road and bridge openings.  There's no front page or 6:00pm News benefit with a pot hole being filled.

Not sure if millions and millions has been spent on wire rope barriers in recent years, happy to be corrected though.  Regardless, wire rope barriers save lives, if installed correctly.

[ruSTynutz]

Not sure if millions and millions has been spent on wire rope barriers in recent years, happy to be corrected though.

Vicroads have supposedly spent $4 Billion on wire rope barriers since 2015...
They've also diverted funds set aside for road maintenance and put them towards wire rope barriers.

Regardless, wire rope barriers save lives, if installed correctly.

At the expense of other road users such as motorcyclists...
They often get installed contrary to Vicroads own guidelines.
Once impacted they can regularly sit for months awaiting repair, in the meantime they are likely to be ineffectual.

[ruSTynutz]

After Sue & I attended the NatRally at Mannum last year we caught up and spent time with Sue's brother in Adelaide.

At the time he owned a Lexus Hybrid SUV and while he seemed very happy with it, he was considering upgrading to a Mitsubishi Outlander PHEV
as he figured with its 84km battery only range he could travel to work easily and not have to waste money of fuel.
He was also in the process of having solar panels and a battery installed at his home.

Fast forward to early this year and he'd had a change of heart and had bought himself a Tesla...

Well, the love affair with that didn't last long as I heard today that he's had a gutful and is getting rid of it and buying another ICE car...
Apparently there's been some issue with the Tesla braking and slowing down to 60kph on its own accord and for no logical reason while driving at highway speeds...something like that anyhow...

Just an update on this as I caught up with my brother-in-law over the Xmas break...
Apparently his Tesla kept picking up speed limit signs adjacent to the actual main road he was traveling on so kept braking to whatever speed was indicated on the other signs. Not something you want when you have cars traveling behind you on an open road.
This is just one of the reasons I think some of this ADAS is crap. If it worked as intended 100% of the time it wouldn't be so bad but a search of the internet will find plenty of examples of it causing issues.

One thing he wasn't particularly a fan of with the Tesla was having to access the central screen all the time plus the fact that the speedo is also situated there makes it not particularly driver friendly. He agreed a heads-up display would be a much better option.

I actually found it quite refreshing that a Tesla owner was acknowledging that it can be a pain in the bum having to dive into a menu of the screen just to operate functions that could be more easily served with a simple button or switch... 

Anyhow, while he still has his Tesla, it will be put on the market soon as he's bought its replacement...not an ICE as I previously thought but a Volvo XC40 Recharge.
He drove that across from Adelaide and found it very nice although the quoted 500km range fell quite a bit short...he said realistically it was more like 300kms.

Oh, and he definitely appreciated the more conventional dash and switch layout over the Tesla... 

[ruSTynutz]

Just watched this John Cadogan video... https://youtu.be/4t8XmORWtuw?si=qGhfwafE2VOO6OyR

Apparently when replacing a windscreen in a Subaru, someone (from O'Briens) touched the lens on one of these "you beaut" cameras that make sure you're watching the road and aren't distracted.
To cut a long story short, Subaru says the camera must now be replaced at a cost of nearly $10,000...WTF! 

[Williamson]

Just watched this John Cadogan video... https://youtu.be/4t8XmORWtuw?si=qGhfwafE2VOO6OyR

Apparently when replacing a windscreen in a Subaru, someone (from O'Briens) touched the lens on one of these "you beaut" cameras that make sure you're watching the road and aren't distracted.
To cut a long story short, Subaru says the camera must now be replaced at a cost of nearly $10,000...WTF! 

Watch that vid this AM, I reckon that story ain't finished yet.

[ruSTynutz]

You're probably right, Michael! 

[ruSTynutz]

In my opinion this can't come soon enough as this trend to control everything through an iPad like screen while driving is absolutely ridiculous! 



Car makers told to ditch distracting touchscreens: Safety body will penalise models that don't have simple button controls

• Crash test body Euro NCAP to introduce rules around controls inside new cars
• Road safety experts are concerned infotainment screen are too distracting
• Brands including Tesla, Mercedes, VW and Volvo all have new systems that are convoluted or unnecessarily confusing to use

New safety tests due to arrive in 2026 will put fresh pressure on car makers to dial back confusing touchscreen systems that can be distracting for drivers to use on the move.

From January 2026, crash testing body Euro NCAP will introduce rules that downgrade the safety ratings of new vehicles that do not have buttons on the dashboard to control simple operations such as indicating and activating hazard warning lights.

Brands including Mercedes-Benz, Tesla, Volkswagen and Volvo are today offering larger, more advanced touchscreens with more controls embedded into them that are convoluted to use while driving.

To continue, click the following link:
https://www.thisismoney.co.uk/money/cars/article-13153771/Car-makers-ditch-distracting-touchscreens.html

[ruSTynutz]

Mitsubishi reworks in-car driver monitoring

Technology that watches drivers on the road will be toned down by a popular car maker after backlash from critics and customers.

Mitsubishi has tweaked the overly sensitive driver monitoring system (DMS) in its new Triton ute after copping a barrage of criticism about the controversial feature.
The feature was so sensitive, an alarm would sound if a driver took a quick sip of coffee or a glance at the steering wheel buttons.
The technology was designed to keep drivers focused on the road ahead but in reality, it behaved like an overbearing back-seat driver.

Click to continue reading: https://tinyurl.com/2r2w3kyb

[ruSTynutz]

Yet more crap that we don't really need...

[ruSTynutz]

De-fund ANCAP now

https://youtu.be/aQ2Imisb3s4?si=-paOM9rvIOahBdsy

Loathe him or love him, John Cadogan talks about the useless ANCAP required "safety devices" such as Lane Keep Assist that are forced onto us motorists...

[Langers]

I'm with Cadogan on this one (although I haven't watch this particular video yet). Our 2023 D-Max has this emergency braking function that I cannot turn off, so the damn vehicle now determines when serious injury or death is imminent and slams on the brakes even though I've determined the small bit of bush we're going to brush past going up a sandhill is of little consequence. Or the vehicle in front is slowing and turning left and I have it all under control and can see I'm going to avoid any chance of a collision - but oh no - the emergency braking module has determined we are at mortal peril and slams on the brakes. The other day it did it and I was so surprised I gripped the wheel and wrenched to the right (not sure why - there was no danger) and aggravated some small muscle near my right elbow. Not happy Jan. I'm sick of the cotton wool being placed around us. Rant over.

[ruSTynutz]

Perfect example of so-called safety features actually making driving less safe, Mark! 

It's worth watching the video though as he explains that ANCAP are doing a "pilot research project" on real world experiences and usability of lane support systems.

You can check out ANCAPS media release: https://www.ancap.com.au/media-and-gallery/media-releases/a62a71