Using UHF Repeater Stations 101......

[Diesel]

OK Brains Trust.....

What can a rookie like me learn from you regarding the Repeater Stations?......

Specifically....

- What is it about transmitting on one station and receiving on another?;
- If you want to talk to someone on Channel 03 - do you need to be on Channel 03 or 33?:
- How do you setup your unit for duplex on the repeater channels?;
- How do you find the repeater station in your area?:
- How can you tell if it is online?:
- Why would you drop to simplex on the duplex stations?:
- Does having a 0.5W, 2W, or 5 Watt transceiver make a difference to how close you have to be to the repeater?;
- What do the new 40 channels mean? i.e. Now you can get 80 channel CBs - why? And are they tacked on to the end of the current 40?;
- Why do you want your handheld hard wired to an aerial instead of just using the unit's OEM aerial?


Answer one or many of these for everyone's benefit - provide links to articles/diagrams if that will help the uninitiated who wants to get into two-way radio.

Thanks in advance.

Cheers, Diesel

[Brock]

- If you want to talk to someone on Channel 03 - do you need to be on Channel 03 or 33?:

  Yes..

Now that you are confused... if you are with in range of a repeater, and what to use it (03) put your radio on Ch 3, and press the duplex/repeater button in. Now press the talk button and away you go. The radio will transmit on ch33 automatically, and receive on 03. The repeater recievs on 33 and transmits on 03 at the same time. The mechanics of how that works is not something that you need to know, it just happens and happens well. If you want to go simplex, just press the duplex button again and you will transmit and receive on 03. If you are in range of the repeater, it is bad manners to transmit on either 03 or 33.

 Normally you wouldnt drop to simplex when using a repeater, as you could loose the station you are talking to. If you can talk without the repeater, move to an empty simplex channel.

When using the UHF to talk to others in a group travelling together, you would be on a vacant simplex channel there is no advantage to use a repeater as you would soon be out of range.

What is it about transmitting on one station and receiving on another?;

A repeater is usually placed on high ground, so it has a good line of site to the area around it. A UHF hand held has a range of about 5Ks if using 5watts, so using a repeater will extend that range for another 30-100 Ks depending on the repeater position and the radio you are talking to and its antenna system.

Damn this writing is hard, and you ask such big questions.

[DaleMcLean]

In short

 What is it about transmitting on one station and receiving on another?;
 - stops confusion 

- If you want to talk to someone on Channel 03 - do you need to be on Channel 03 or 33?:
if both either on repeater setting then the other must TX on the repaeater out ch, both on dulplex then on CH3

- How do you setup your unit for duplex on the repeater channels?;
depends on the radio, usually juat a button or switch

- How do you find the repeater station in your area?:
ther are lists on the 'net, but just listen on on ch 1 to 8 and here all teh crap, you'll know.

- How can you tell if it is online?:
set yours to duplex on the ch desired, do a short TX and you'll get a short RX back 

- Why would you drop to simplex on the duplex stations?:
cause it rx's on a ch 30 above your tx ch

- Does having a 0.5W, 2W, or 5 Watt transceiver make a difference to how close you have to be to the repeater?;
YES .5 w you may as well yell without a radio  , 2w if you are within 8k or so and DIRECT L.O.S., 5w within 15k or so your alright

- What do the new 40 channels mean? i.e. Now you can get 80 channel CBs - why? And are they tacked on to the end of the current 40?;
teh "new" 40 are betweeen the old 40, new spacing is 12.5kHz, old is 25kHz

- Why do you want your handheld hard wired to an aerial instead of just using the unit's OEM aerial?
a "hard wired" aerial can have better gain , but is also more directional. think of a 9dB gain aeial having a pattern like a lghthouse, goes a long way but very directional, the inbuilt aerial will have miimal gain but work the same in all directions up and down not just a "beam"

short answers

[terrydj]

Ahhhhhhh why would you want to do it. Who are you going to talk to. Me being an idiot only have a UHF to talk to other bikes or the occassional truckie in the early hours
I have a phone that works through my GPS so if I want to talk to someone a long way away I just ring. Bloody simple eh.

[Whizz]

Terry, that is all good...as long as you are in an area that has phone coverage otherwise you phone is as much use as a doorstop.

Also, a phone only works to one person i.e you call someone, they answer; the CB works to everyone on the same frequency so on a group ride with, for example 10 bikes with CB, there are 10 people in on the conversation. Would make long journeys (Brisbane to Victor Harbor?) at lot less quiet.

[terrydj]

Ahhhh so true but your CB has to be powerful enough to reach the repeater station as well and me being an idiot would think that the repeater stations do not stand alone and have also Digital phone repeaters on em as well

[Whizz]

I think there seems to be some confusion as to the purpose of repeaters, they are not necessary for two-way communication, only for long-range two way communication. a 5W transmitter into a good antenna will give you at least 10-15kms range using simplex transmissions, i.e. both receiving and transmitting on the same frequency, so assuming that all the people on the ride are within 10kms or so of each other, simplex transmissions are quite adequate for clear conversations.

As an example an aircraft uses 10W into a properly matched antenna and can achieve anything up to 180kms without the use of repeaters, however this is line-of-sight, in other words there is nothing in between the transmitter and the receiver.

A repeater is only of value if you want to extend the range to greater distances than 'local', i.e up to 100Kms (why this would be necessary except in an emergency situation on a bike ride I'm not sure) , or if you have an obstruction between the transmitter and the receiver like a range of hills. It is an automatic process, simply push the duplex button (check the user manual to find out what it's called on your particular radio set) and keep using the radio exactly as you were using it before, it does all the fancy stuff involved with frequency changing in the background without you needing to do anything different.

Hope this clarifies the situation a bit.

[alans1100]

Just reading the few posts on this topic makes it seem like UHF is way to confusing compared to the older 23/40 channel 27meg AM/SSB times.

We never had to worry about repeater stations etc. One emergency channel (nine for memory), one call channel (11) and one for truckies though it was more a highway channel. There was also a sideband call channel as well but can't recall that one.

Back then I used to live in Whyalla, SA and we could chat to just about anyone from Perth, Darwin, QLD to Vic and international chats as well just using skip. We also had to have either a license or run illegal.

[Brock]

There was also a sideband call channel as well but can't recall that one.

Channel 16LSB.

UHF is not that hard, but then I have been playing with it since day one... First UHF was a Philips FM320, that I still have in the shed some where.

[Whizz]

Please don't get me started on 27Meg technology. 27Megs is near the top end of the HF band (2-30MHz, HF=High Frequency as opposed to UHF which is Ultra High Frequency at about 476MHz), and HF is really done by smoke and mirrors. If ever there was a system designed to be complicated it's HF!; with the right conditions and a good antenna system 5W would get you right across the planet to the US from here. I know, I've done it from Aldergrove in Northern Ireland to Gander in Newfoundland, that's right across the Atlantic Ocean, yet the intended recipient of the transmission, who was only 8 miles away, couldn't hear me. It's all to do with the Ionosphere and it's height above the earth's surface, the time of day and skip distances, and if any one really wants to know more then ask me personally and I'll see what I can do. 

But please don't run away with the idea that repeaters on UHF complicate things, you do not need a repeater for UHF to work very nicely thank you. Straight forward, really!, pick a channel, transmit on it, the person you want to talk to hears you (as long as they are on the same channel) and they reply...easy! Repeaters are only of any use if you want long range and on a ride you don't need that. All you need to know is which channels are repeaters and then to stay away from them, simple!

[Brock]

UHF does some strange things too, I have spoke to Geralton from Bunbury WA through the Perth Ch3 repeater, and spoken to a guy in Albany from just east of Nulabour fuel stop.

[Gadget]

This topic has raised many good points. so I'll address what I can.

My biggest bugbear first. For those with UHF please remember that Channel 5 'Emergency' Repeaters are set up at various places around the country and most of them are monitored by volunteers. 
 
Because of this, it is very important that no-one transmits on Ch 5 or the Duplex pair Ch 35 unless there is a genuine emergency.   

There is a Ch 5 repeater up on Mt Glorious and it is monitored by ACREM. http://qld.acrem.org.au/ 

A good repeater listing can be found here http://www.vkham.com/Repeater/uhfcb.html

In the Brisbane area there are several repeater stations, Ch 7 (VHQ07) http://www.vhq07.com/at Mt Glorious, CH 8 at Oceanview, and there used to be a CH2 at Wavell heights, CH 6 on the Sunshine Coast, Ch 4 Laidley, Ch 1 on North Stradbroke and a couple down the Gold Coast.  And I believe there is a CH 7 up in toowoomba as well

As has been said, UHF repeaters are very handy if you need to talk to some one over longer distances.  I can see this being handy if you have the groups all setting off from different locations to meet up somewhere, using the repeater until you get closer to each other would be handy.  Also on a long trip where the group may get broken up, knowing a local repeater station may mean you can flick to the repeater on loss of contact to regain contact with somone who may have fallen behind for various reasons.  Some large rural properties set up repeaters to keep in contact across the farm and some do frown on you using "their" repeater, but it is not illegal to use them, as it is a public class licence that allows them to set up 'their' repeaters.

CH7 (VHQ07) is usually very busy during the week and there are some "power" stations, with quad directional antenna 16 or 21 element arrays, the can swamp/dominate the repeater from time to time.  It's big benefit is the coverage area which is from the Gold Coast, west to Toowoomba and North to the Sunshine Coast.  I used to use this channel a lot when I was running around doing servicing work in the South-East.  Made some good friends through that.  (one of them another ST1300 owner)

Ch 8 suffers badly from Truckers 'going down a couple' for a private chat on the Bruce and thereby going to the input channel of Ch 8. and this is where it is bad manners to transmit on 31 to 38 and with the new 80 Channels 71 to 78.

There is some good reading here on the ACMA website.  http://www.acma.gov.au/WEB/STANDARD/pc=PC_1265 
This one explains repeaters http://www.acma.gov.au/WEB/STANDARD/pc=PC_1265#repeater


Part way down this document http://www.comlaw.gov.au/Details/F2011L00862 it explains the new 80 Channels, but as has been said before, they have slotted them in between the old 40 channels so Ch 41 slots between Ch 1 and Ch2, and Ch 42 between Ch 2 and Ch3 etc.  At the moment the old radios have a 25 kHz spacing with no more then 16 kHz bandwidth and the new ones have 12.5 kHz spacing and no more than 10.1 kHz Bandwidth.

In a few years time, 30 June 2017, the old 40 Ch radios are expected to be retired and only 80 Channel radios with 12.5 kHz channel spacing will be legal.  Some of the old radios, the more recent ones, can be reprogrammed to the new channel spacing to remain legal.

One other point, UHF repeaters cannot legally be connected to each other, so once you out of range of one, that's it.

Hope that helps.
Gadget

 

[Diesel]

I'm about to start using the uhf cb on a more regular basis - so thanks to all contributors so far.     


My next question is what channels are used by truckies, grey nomads, police, general chat etc around the country - I heard you should change channels to listen in down the Newell Highway from when you come from Qld through Goondiwindi - is this correct?


Cheers, Diesel

[Brock]

Truckies on Ch 40, the old 40 channels are pretty busy, but the upper 40 (new ones) are clear, thats why in the west we use ch50. I dont think police are on UHF CB (Maybe highway patrol have it) if so they probably listen in to ch40.

Here be some info.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/UHF_CB

[Lionel]

Diesel,
Use ch 40 most places, but change to ch 29 on the Pacific Highway (Sydney-Brisbane).
I'm not sure about the Bruce Highway.
As an aside, what we generally refer to as the "truckies" channel (ch 40) is actually the highway comms channel. You can get a list of the channels on the web. From time to time I hear truckies telling other users to get off "their" channel. I politely set them straight.
I usually ride with the UHF on ch 40, even if riding with others, because of safety reasons. The truckies tell each other where Mr Plod is undertaking a road safety activity. 

[Gadget]

Most of the Grey Nomads use 18 some use 27.

29 for the Pacific between the Gold Coast and down near the start of the Newcastle Freeway where the Newell Highway joins. The reason being there are a few places where the coverage from the Newell highway covers both highways. To avoid confusion they've chosen separate channels.

40 just about everywhere else.

Remember 5 Duplex and 35 Simplex for emergencies only.

[ST2UP]

Most of the Grey Nomads use 18 some use 27.

29 for the Pacific between the Gold Coast and down near the start of the Newcastle Freeway where the Newell Highway joins. The reason being there are a few places where the coverage from the Newell highway covers both highways. To avoid confusion they've chosen separate channels.

40 just about everywhere else.

Remember 5 Duplex and 35 Simplex for emergencies only.

Hey Gadget if we ever ride together anywhere, can I lead   

[Lionel]

ST2UP, it's a typo. He meant the Hume.
The closest the Newell gets to the start of the Newcastle Expressway in Sydney appears to be Parkes.

[Brock]

Remember 5 Duplex and 35 Simplex for emergencies only.

I would never TX on 35 simplex any time, but 5simplex if you are in range of the monitoring station maybe. Ch 35 is the emergency channel (5) repeater uplink, which in turn retansmits on 5.  In general, keep clear of ch5

[ST2UP]

The worst time of year for serious disruption on Ch. 5/35 is the week after Christmas.....well meaning but clueless parents buy the $49 a pair "Toy" 1 watt UHF CB radios from Autopro or supercheap etc

They naturally don't read the booklet if one comes with the radio from the manufacturer about channel designation.....they buy them for the kids to talk from one side of the yard to the other or to the kids across the street....


When the radios are first turned on many are preset to channel 5 and away the chatter goes until the batteries go flat 


I installed the Channel Emergency 5 Repeater here about 15 years ago....its at 1600 metres above sea level , so any chatter by people who don't read their operator manual on ch.35 and in the repeater footprint has them transmitting all over the New England.....very frustrating, trucks on the New England stay in the foot print for well over an hour with their waffle...... so much so we know longer have Ch. 5 turned on at home unless their is a reason too 

[Gadget]

Just to clarify what I meant about 5 and 35 as emergency channel.

I'm well aware of the 5/35 duplex. If you have a radio that is set up for 5 Duplex by all means use it,  however,  if you don't and you are in an emergency,  I think it would be prudent to use 35 in the hope of hitting a 5 repeater and then switching to 5 to listen for a reply. On 5 Simplex you will only have the range of your own radio,  and if you are in a valley or depression in the landscape that may not be far,  especially if you are only on 100 mW or 1 Watt. On 35 you have a remote possibility of hitting that repeater and it giving you that extra range.

1st preference 5 Duplex, 2nd preference 35 Simplex. 3rd preference 5 simplex.

As for "chit chat on 5" a short officious explanation alone the lines of,  "Unidentified Callsign,  5 and 35 are Federally designated as Emergency use only,  please choose a channel between 9 and 30, 39 and 40, 49 and 70. Have a nice day." Usually does the trick. Once they become educated most quite happily move on.

[saaz]

The New England highway starts at Newcastle

ST2UP, it's a typo. He meant the Hume.
The closest the Newell gets to the start of the Newcastle Expressway in Sydney appears to be Parkes.

[Lionel]

Much more likely, Saaz.
I was thinking of the start of the Newcastle Expressway being at the Sydney end near Pearce's corner.

[Diesel]

Here is a great link for anyone just starting out on uhf etc....


http://www.noboundaries.com.au/UHF%20explained.html


Cheers, Diesel