Author Topic: Cannot fix ST1300...  (Read 33975 times)

Offline Diesel

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Cannot fix ST1300...
« on: June 26, 2013, 08:55:10 AM »
Well, I am fairly shattered today as here is a pic of my bike at the moment....







... and I have reached the limit of my expertise and capability. Whilst I have researched the subject of alternator removal for many hours, read the workshop manual and worked with it, and coupled with my experience on mechanical things, I have to admit defeat on this daunting project. The truck should be around later today to get the 'experts' to finish the job back to this point (with a new or rebuilt alternator).


On the bright side... I may have saved a few quid in labour charges, as the shop would still have to get to this point and charge for it.


With Ebor looming, I do not have time to ponder things for a week or two.


I'll keep you posted with progress.

Cheers, Diesel
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Online StinkyPete

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Re: Cannot fix ST1300...
« Reply #1 on: June 26, 2013, 09:18:39 AM »
 :eek :eek
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Offline Sabie

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Re: Cannot fix ST1300...
« Reply #2 on: June 26, 2013, 09:32:27 AM »
Hi Diesel

Where do we send the flowers and cards?

(Sabie pronounced Sab bee)

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Offline Tipsy

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Re: Cannot fix ST1300...
« Reply #3 on: June 26, 2013, 09:33:52 AM »
 :wht11 py

Buggar
lets hope the other experts dont take to long mate    :fp :cuss  :cuss

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Offline Sicman

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Re: Cannot fix ST1300...
« Reply #4 on: June 26, 2013, 09:35:05 AM »
 :think1 I see the problem  - You dont have your very handy mobile mechanics from down south there to guide you  :spank :eek

All you needed to do was provide  :beer :eat :popcorn :beer :beer :beer :beer :beer and we would have solved it for you at a lot cheaper rate  :wink1 :p :crackup :rofl

Cheers
Tony
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Offline saaz

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Re: Cannot fix ST1300...
« Reply #5 on: June 26, 2013, 02:34:08 PM »
Do all the tests point to an alternator failure?  I haven't heard much about such failures but they must happen sometimes.
John
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Offline ST2UP

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Re: Cannot fix ST1300...
« Reply #6 on: June 26, 2013, 03:15:53 PM »
:think1 I see the problem  - You dont have your very handy mobile mechanics from down south there to guide you  :spank :eek

All you needed to do was provide  :beer :eat :popcorn :beer :beer :beer :beer :beer and we would have solved it for you at a lot cheaper rate  :wink1 :p :crackup :rofl

Dont know about cheaper ???? We drank more than any 4 mechanics I know would charge just fixing a tyre for him...... :whistle

How far did you push that tyre plug into Stella anyway Tony ??? Tell the Honda STealer to look for a tyre plug screwed into your alternator  :eek


goodluck with STella for Ebor.....

 :beer
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Offline Diesel

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Re: Cannot fix ST1300...
« Reply #7 on: June 26, 2013, 03:49:12 PM »
Do all the tests point to an alternator failure?  I haven't heard much about such failures but they must happen sometimes.

Yep - looks like brushes etc, going on the tiny bit of extra charge at higher revs. There are diodes and he stator to check out too.

@ Tony and Chris - yep - mechanic is much cheaper than trying to keep grog up to you two!         :p      Do you know how much overtime Mrs Diesel had to do to restock the beer fridge?        :eek          :wink1
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Offline Sicman

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Re: Cannot fix ST1300...
« Reply #8 on: June 26, 2013, 04:35:02 PM »
Damn She is a good woman  :thumbs :clap - So how did you end up with her  :think1  :grin :grin
Cheers
Tony
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Re: Cannot fix ST1300...
« Reply #9 on: June 26, 2013, 05:29:23 PM »
Damn She is a good woman  :thumbs :clap - So how did you end up with her  :think1  :grin :grin

There's a picture on the forum somewhere of Mrs D mowing the lawns, while Mr D sits drinking. :clap :clap :clap :clap
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Offline Brian

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Re: Cannot fix ST1300...
« Reply #10 on: June 26, 2013, 06:58:06 PM »
Hey Dave... Do those landing lights you have on the bike have anything to do with the failed alternator?
I jus wanna ride my bike

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Offline Malcolm6112

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Re: Cannot fix ST1300...
« Reply #11 on: June 26, 2013, 10:26:21 PM »
Just looked in the workshop manual, you almost had it.



 :blu13
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Offline Diesel

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Re: Cannot fix ST1300...
« Reply #12 on: June 27, 2013, 08:02:24 AM »
Damn She is a good woman  :thumbs :clap - So how did you end up with her  :think1 :grin :grin

Mrs Diesel is a sucker for a classy, intelligent, charismatic gentleman. Nuff said really.         :p






Hey Dave... Do those landing lights you have on the bike have anything to do with the failed alternator?


When the mech saw the lights, he did this....      :eek      and suggested accelerated wear.   BUT..... The alternator is rated at 740 watts, and even with all my circuits, I'd be pulling only about half of that (i.e. HALF its factory rating) - so not sure if I totally agree. Brock, Whizz or others may be able to shed some HID on this for us.






Just looked in the workshop manual, you almost had it.




Yeah Mal - but this happened too close to Ebor for me to invest another few nights trying to get everything sussed.




***************************************
UPDATE:


Shop rang and confirmed the alt had no output.


***************************************


Looks like a newy, or a rewind on this one. At least bike should be going sooner rather than later.


Cheers, Diesel
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Offline Neale

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Re: Cannot fix ST1300...
« Reply #13 on: June 27, 2013, 08:16:04 AM »
Good stuff. :runyay
Neale

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Online Brock

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Re: Cannot fix ST1300...
« Reply #14 on: June 27, 2013, 08:25:54 AM »
Quote
When the mech saw the lights, he did this....      :eek      and suggested accelerated wear.
  :|||| :||||

Rubbish, the brushes are there to allow variable voltage to the rotor, the load is all drawn from the stator windings via the diodes. Brush wear is due to friction only.....

740 Watts is in the order of 60Amps, it takes a lot to draw that much..
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Offline saaz

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Re: Cannot fix ST1300...
« Reply #15 on: June 27, 2013, 09:04:01 AM »
HIDs draw more power at startup, but less while in operation. The battery takes care of this temporary current requirement.  ST11s and ST13s have been running with more power load than this for many years. The weak point usually turns out to be wiring connections, not the alternator.
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Offline Diesel

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Re: Cannot fix ST1300...
« Reply #16 on: June 27, 2013, 09:19:32 AM »
Rubbish, the brushes are there to allow variable voltage to the rotor, the load is all drawn from the stator windings via the diodes. Brush wear is due to friction only.....

740 Watts is in the order of 60Amps, it takes a lot to draw that much..

Thanks mate - I'm about to call them and work out a solution.        :thumb


Thanks too saaz. 
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Offline Diesel

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Re: Cannot fix ST1300...
« Reply #17 on: June 27, 2013, 09:35:36 AM »
OK - shop says there is no continuity between input and output of brushes contact pads and that I have fried the guts of it - so no replacing brushes or diodes or stator will fix - needs whole new unit. He is pricing one as we speak.

He also says that I caused this by the massive draw from the lights and electricals - but I thought relays and fuses made all this OK.         :think1     hmmmm.
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Offline Mitch

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Re: Cannot fix ST1300...
« Reply #18 on: June 27, 2013, 11:05:36 AM »
 Let the Defarkling Begin  :fp  :whistle
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Offline Whizz

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Re: Cannot fix ST1300...
« Reply #19 on: June 27, 2013, 11:34:31 AM »
Diesel, first question, how many lights do you have on your bike (including the back ones) and what wattage is each one? This will give a basis to calculate total current drawn when all the the lights were actually on, not forgetting the current actually required to run the donk at the same time.

It is quite conceivable that the alternator my have simply turned up its toes and died, it's happened to me before now both on bikes and in cars, so it is certainly not unheard of! I actually had one burst into flames on an old Ford I drove for a short while back in UK many years ago!!
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Online Brock

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Re: Cannot fix ST1300...
« Reply #20 on: June 27, 2013, 11:41:36 AM »
I would like to examine the alternator, I find his description hard to believe. The rotor might be open circuit, but I seriously doubt it is due to high loading....
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Offline Diesel

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Re: Cannot fix ST1300...
« Reply #21 on: June 27, 2013, 12:16:06 PM »
Agreed Gents.

I actually have 2 x 55 watt HID headlights, 2 x 55 Watt Halogen spotties and 2 x 55 watt HID spotties, a 2 x 9 watt rear marker lights, heated hand grips, cruise control unit, 12v cig lighter socket.

All this adds up to less than half the 740 watt output of the alt.

I have heard the standard 13 requires 54 watts to operate.

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Offline Hendo

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Re: Cannot fix ST1300...
« Reply #22 on: June 27, 2013, 01:02:54 PM »
I May have missed something but it sounds like  a serious load on the wee alterator:

2x 55W HID                                               110
2x 55W Halogen                                        110
2x55W HID Spotties                                  110
2x 9W Markers                                            18
Heated Grips 4-5Amp                                  55
ST1300 (Comp, inj etc)                                54
Cruise (estimate )                                        50
                                                             ---------
                                                                 507
5-10% inefficiencies( switch/relay etc)        40
Cig lighter >120w but lets say gps              20

Grand Total                                                 567 W

Plus the  battery will need recharge after a start, which could easily top out at the 740W mark for quite a period of time till the battery is recharged.

Are the Alternators rated at 740W continous?

 :think1  Just food for thought

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Offline Diesel

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Re: Cannot fix ST1300...
« Reply #23 on: June 27, 2013, 01:10:19 PM »
I May have missed something but it sounds like  a serious load on the wee alterator:

2x 55W HID                                               110
2x 55W Halogen                                        110
2x55W HID Spotties                                  110
2x 9W Markers                                            18
Heated Grips 4-5Amp                                  55
ST1300 (Comp, inj etc)                                54
Cruise (estimate )                                        50
                                                             ---------
                                                                 507
5-10% inefficiencies( switch/relay etc)        40
Cig lighter >120w but lets say gps              20

Grand Total                                                 567 W

Plus the  battery will need recharge after a start, which could easily top out at the 740W mark for quite a period of time till the battery is recharged.

Are the Alternators rated at 740W continous?

 :think1  Just food for thought



Thanks Hendo - these things are rarely all used at the same time, and night riding realistically makes up only makes up 3 percent of the bike's usage (just a guess) so the lights are barely ever on.  Do you agree this could fry the guts?

Cheers, Diesel


PS - just saw that I can get one delivered for $630 from Stateside.
« Last Edit: June 27, 2013, 01:22:02 PM by Diesel »
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Offline Whizz

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Re: Cannot fix ST1300...
« Reply #24 on: June 27, 2013, 01:48:55 PM »
Don't forget Brake Lights and Indicators as well as the rest of the continuous loads. The thing that occurs to me is whether there is an actual time limit for the specified available wattage, I don't know but from a design point of view why would Honda decide to fit a 740W Alternator if the actual design does not actually need anything remotely close to that supply?

I know that they do add a Jesus Factor with Alternators as well as everything else, I am just quite concerned with the number of very bright lights that have been added in this instance. To have 6 very bright head lights seems excessive from a current supply point of view, this effectively gives a supply requirement that is three times what was originally in the design requirement and any Design Engineer would have a minor fit if these figures were given to him to investigate!

I tend to agree with Hendo68 that we are not including the amount of current that is being supplied to recharge the battery after starting the engine...that is most certainly NOT a small amount, and if that is added to the current requirements for the lights etc. then I can reasonably assume that the required Alternator wattage is excessively high.

Add to this the fact that there would be somewhere in the order of 50A or more being drawn from the battery/Alternator (570W/12V + battery charge current) in amps and you can assume that there is a significant drop in voltage in the cable because of the resistance and heat being created in the cable itself, none of which is going to help the problem.

All this can reasonably be assumed to be the case because your Alternator did actually die!!...others, without the number of lights quoted, have not. The situation seems to prove itself, I fear.

Now I may be wrong, but I do think that the tripling of the number of headlights to 6, all powered by the original Alternator which was designed to feed only 2, and the subsequent death of that Alternator sort of explains itself!
Cheers,
Paul
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