There's a Cop in NSW who is so clever, he doesnt need a radar to ping people

[Kev Murphy]

... His 'guesstimation' of a drivers speed is sufficient to write out a ticket...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2-qLaNDQ_4c

[Kev Murphy]

I wonder if this is the same guy who put me on the breatho a couple years ago, and claimed that I returned a positive reading which (according to him) was sufficient to write me a ticket on the spot for drink driving?  It was only when I challenged him to take me to a hospital for a blood test that he backed down.

I dont drink.

[Shiney]

It would be interesting to see how it went in court.

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[Shaun]

Oh dear. This really is poor policing. I really don't enjoy the in your faceness and rudeness that the filmer exhibited which seems to be endemic when someone is running a camera, but the police officer is unfortunately out of order here.

I was pulling off from some lights once and I did so at a rapid acceleration. I got pulled over a few metres down the road and informed that I was "speeding". I knew I hadn't got up over the limit so I queried the officer (from memory another senior sargent). He said I sped from the lights. I asked him for a reading and like this gentleman was unable to provide one.

I asked "sped from the lights? You are aware that acceleration and speed are two different things?"

"You sped from the lights"

"No...I accelerated quickly to the posted speed"

"yeah. that's speeding"

...Shame he had just pulled someone over with a doctorate in Physics.

What followed was a short treatise on the difference between speed and acceleration. At least the guy conceded and didn't write me a ticket, although he did have a look around the bike to see if there were any defects he could get me on.

"Your tyre is slick in the middle on this rear"

"It's a motorcycle tyre, it is meant to be low tread in the centre"

"oh"

Anyway, I don't think most coppers are like these two, but the one from the video, my goodness...

[ST2UP]

We will allow this thread to run its course because it deserves a hearing and its splashed all over the Internet......BUT in the true manner of OzSTOC style it is to remain respectful 



 

[ppopeye]

Probably doesn't happen these days but estimating speed was used quite a bit in them olden days.


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[Totgas]

Courts rule Police Officers (H'Way Patrol)  as speed experts. Reported to have undertaken a course to certify them as such. ?"Speedology 101"
In the case of an alleged speeding offence going to court, the Judge will rule on the side of the Police every time, even if you have a corroborating witness. 
A tachograph would be your own chance to dispute the ruling.
    
A.   

[Doggie 1]

Speed estimation by traffic police officers is a legitimate way to prosecute offenders.
Traffic police officers are considered to be "expert witnesses" in court due to the fact that they estimate vehicle speeds day in and day out and check those estimations against approved speed measuring devices.
An allowance is made for some small error when applying penalty.
They give evidence in court of their estimation and that evidence is usually (but not always) accepted.
The police officer was correct.
The driver didn't listen to what was being told to him, quite clearly.
Sorry, but the driver's attitude didn't help the situation IMO.
He has the right to defend the charge in a court of law if he wishes.

[Nigel]

Pretty much like most assumptions, just challenge it in court. Always right of appeal............................

[Biggles]

Pretty much like most assumptions, just challenge it in court. Always right of appeal............................

If you have the money and the time.

[Nigel]

Not quite, if your right, and want to say your piece, then do it, cant roll over, try to keep them honest. Much rather turn up spend some money, and tell them they were wrong than accept there interpretation that they are right. When was the last time you saw some thing and thought, that's wrong  and then did nothing about it?...Don`t they encourage us to do that  with Crime Stoppers? Just a thought.................

[Z900owner]

I'll throw in my 2 cents worth

If you have a look at the video again you will see a black box on the Officers left pocket over his chest. From what I heard they all carry videos now just for this type of interaction.

If this goes to court I have a feeling the Copper will produce the full video, not just the short version that the Truckie wants us to see,

Traffic cops are considered experts when it comes to speed measurement, especially those who do it day in and day out.

Before issuing a ticket they usually visually estimate the speed of the vehicle and then verify that estimated speed by using a speed measuring device such as a Laser or Radar

They are quite justified to issue a ticket based on a visual estimation, and especially if there are other officers present who can back up the cops estimation with similar estimations of their own.

The other thing that the courts consider is how long the copper has been doing traffic work, if he has been doing the same job for many years.

Depending on the coppers experience I think our truckie will go down

 

[StinkyPete]

Speed estimates cannot be used in SA for the purposes of issuing a speeding infringement.

[Biggles]

I'm no expert, but I've never heard of it in Qld.  I've got my booklet of tickets to the Policemen's Ball and they're all machine verified.     

[Kev Murphy]

Some interesting stuff here from todays Illawarra Mercury newspaper...

http://www.illawarramercury.com.au/story/2539798/10-truths-you-can-take-to-the-bank-about-speed-cameras/

[Gadget]

I'm no expert, but I've never heard of it in Qld.  I've got my booklet of tickets to the Policemen's Ball and they're all machine verified.     

My brother in law was issued a fine for an estimated speed, took it to court, asked some questions about the distance from start to being pulled over, adjourned while the Police went and got the information, back to court, before case was heard by the magistrate, the prosecutor and my brother in law agreed to him pleading guilty to 10 km/h over the limit. Surprised the magistrate. .

[Doggie 1]

I'm no expert, but I've never heard of it in Qld.  I've got my booklet of tickets to the Policemen's Ball and they're all machine verified.     

My brother in law was issued a fine for an estimated speed, took it to court, asked some questions about the distance from start to being pulled over, adjourned while the Police went and got the information, back to court, before case was heard by the magistrate, the prosecutor and my brother in law agreed to him pleading guilty to 10 km/h over the limit. Surprised the magistrate. .

The prosecution only needs to prove the offence of speeding.
The amount over the limit just goes towards penalty.

[winston66]

This seems to be a very rum deal and pretty wonky to me.
All I know is that Traffic police vehicles including my ex police ST1300  when it was in service, have to have their speedometers correct and calibrated , usually at six monthly intervals.
I have never heard of or been witness to someone being booked  for speeding without the officer being able to reliably  prove and substantiate what speed the offending vehicle was doing.
As far as I am concerned for a LEO. to say that he estimated  either my or someone elses speed to be X and to expect me to accept his (obviously biased) opinion and then cop it sweet  together with the appropriate financial and demerit point penalty to be applied for exceeding the mandatory speed limit.
That will never happen!!!!
I sincerely believe that the burden of proof for any alledged offence , in this case , speeding, lies with the official party having to prove their presented details, (opinions). To the total satisfaction of the Judge.
In my understanding of the law, a so called estimation does not fill this criteria.
That is my 20 cents worth.

If they can not, or do not, do this, then the  procedure should be thrown out of court.

Cheers, Winston66

[Shaun]

I am a trained Physicist, with a PhD in the study of complex kinematics and forces.

I wonder if I can call myself as an expert witness for the defence. 

But seriously though, I agree with Winston in that I have never had a police officer attempt to properly cite me for speeding without having a screen to show me with the offending numbers writ. I have had occasions where they have said I might have been going a mite fast in their scary Voice of Authority, but did not actually issue me with an infringement.

Has anyone here actually been issued with an infringement based on an officers estimation of their speed?

[ppopeye]

Have done it many times in a former life. Usually for a reasonable amount over, not just a few k's. Technology available now means it isn't usually required.


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[Doggie 1]

Have done it many times in a former life. Usually for a reasonable amount over, not just a few k's. Technology available now means it isn't usually required.


Sent from my iPad

Agreed.

Me too.

Whether you like it or not, it is accepted by the courts with the proviso that yes, you have the right to defend yourself.

It doesn't matter if you like it. It happens.

[STroppy]

I am a trained Physicist, with a PhD in the study of complex kinematics and forces.

I wonder if I can call myself as an expert witness for the defence. 

But seriously though, I agree with Winston in that I have never had a police officer attempt to properly cite me for speeding without having a screen to show me with the offending numbers writ. I have had occasions where they have said I might have been going a mite fast in their scary Voice of Authority, but did not actually issue me with an infringement.

Has anyone here actually been issued with an infringement based on an officers estimation of their speed?

I did but it was back in 1966 and it was for doing 35 Mph in a 30 Mph zone . . A Fair Cop . .

[ppopeye]

Probably not


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[ST2UP]

I am a trained Physicist, with a PhD in the study of complex kinematics and forces.

I wonder if I can call myself as an expert witness for the defence. 

But seriously though, I agree with Winston in that I have never had a police officer attempt to properly cite me for speeding without having a screen to show me with the offending numbers writ. I have had occasions where they have said I might have been going a mite fast in their scary Voice of Authority, but did not actually issue me with an infringement.

Has anyone here actually been issued with an infringement based on an officers estimation of their speed?

I did but it was back in 1966 and it was for doing 35 Mph in a 30 Mph zone . . A Fair Cop . .

Wow !! STroppy you really had that horse and sulky motoring......

[STroppy]

Bloody young Whipper Snapper . .